Today I’m joined by Lutheran probate attorney Jen Gumble of Organized Afterlife!
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Remy: This episode of Lutheran Answers is brought to you by our sponsor, Dial A Podcast. Dial A Podcast, proud sponsor of Lutheran Answers, provides a simple yet powerful solution to bring your church’s sermons and Bible studies closer to those who might be a step away from the digital world. Getting started with a local telephone number is easy, allowing anyone to listen to your content with just a phone call at their convenience. It’s an excellent way for congregations of all size to extend their reach. Get started with a 30 day risk free trial at dialapodcast.com and ensure no one misses out out on your church’s messages.
Not the best show in the world, but I just keep it light.
Jen, thanks for conversational. So, yeah, thanks for coming on.
Let’s see. I do have show notes here that. See, if I were better at this, I would have the show notes up already.
But we are going to discuss a couple of things. Memento Mori, Vacation as Vocation as a legacy, and anything that we can fit within those topics, including why you’re a Lutheran, how these things are distinct in Lutheran theology and practice.
But to get us started off, your thing is organized afterlife. You are a probate attorney, huh?
[00:01:32] Jen: Yep. Probate and estate planning attorney.
And the.
There, there’s a couple parts of that where you, I get to kind of see the results of people’s lives, you know, on a daily basis.
And then kind of the importance of education, having an estate plan that works.
[00:01:55] Remy: Okay.
[00:01:56] Jen: So that’s where the online stuff comes into it. Um, almost. I, I joke with people. There needs to be a Dave Ramsey of death.
[00:02:03] Remy: So that’s nice. Oh my gosh. Can you please. That is so great. A Dave Ramsey of death. Can you please? That should be like your whole brand. That’s amazing.
[00:02:18] Jen: It’s like, it’s like I say, I say in three words and everyone gets it. It’s so funny.
[00:02:23] Remy: Yeah.
A Dave Ramsey of death. I’m writing that down. There’s no particular reason I’m writing that down. I just think that is so great. Oh my gosh. It does, it does encapsulate everything you do. Huh? Because like now I totally get it.
[00:02:40] Jen: Yep.
[00:02:41] Remy: I totally get it. Wow.
Even though you’re a probate attorney, how often do your friends and family ask you to go to traffic court for them?
[00:02:50] Jen: I’ve, I’ve done it a couple times.
Just probably more recently in my career I’ve been able to, to really niche down. But for a long time I was a, I was a small town attorney.
[00:03:01] Remy: Oh.
[00:03:01] Jen: And so like, like, I loved estate planning. And probate, but every once in a while, you know, like, I’ve been a city attorney for some small cities and, you know, traffic court for family, and I was successful.
[00:03:16] Remy: I.
I’m. I’m always amazed. I. It’s going to sound like I get tickets all the time. I don’t. I’ve used this guy twice in, like, the last 10 years. But there’s this guy in our town, and I don’t know. I mean, I assume it’s legal because he’s an attorney, but he. He’ll just be like, he called me because I submitted her. I. So look, I rolled a stop sign on Thanksgiving, and there was no one on the road, no one anywhere except the cop literally hiding in the bushes watching the stop sign because it’s the most run stop sign in our town. And it was Thanksgiving Day, and he.
[00:03:55] Jen: I know those type of intersections.
[00:03:56] Remy: Yeah, yeah. He had to work Thanksgiving Day and hated it.
[00:04:00] Jen: Yeah, yeah.
[00:04:01] Remy: And my registration was expired, and I hadn’t gotten that taken care of.
[00:04:08] Jen: Right.
[00:04:08] Remy: Because I had a check engine light. And in North Carolina, you’re not going to pass an inspection with a check engine light. And so I had to get my car inspections. I had to get my car fixed before I could get my inspection. And then in North Carolina, it’s tax and tags together.
[00:04:23] Jen: Oh, my God.
[00:04:24] Remy: So when this guy pulls me over, it’s Thanksgiving Day, and he’s got to work. He writes me a ticket for rolling the stop sign for out of date registration, and then he writes me a third ticket for having failed a previous inspection because of the check engine light, which I didn’t even know you could get a ticket for.
[00:04:43] Jen: Right.
[00:04:43] Remy: And so I called this little. This little local attorney in town, and.
And he was like, yeah, send me 200 bucks. It’s done.
And I was like, okay. So I literally just sent me a link online. I paid him 200 bucks. A week later, he sent me an email and was like, hey, it all got dismissed. I was like, do I have to go get my car inspected or show proof? He was like, no.
I was like, okay. I don’t know what he does, but it’s. I assume it’s legal and right, you know, I guess I don’t want to know what he does anyway. Attorneys, y’all are like magic to me, the way y’all make things happen.
[00:05:19] Jen: That’s why I went to. That was part of the reason why I went to law school. It’s like, I want to know the magic.
[00:05:24] Remy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is the magic exactly Is it just knowing the law? You just know the law really well.
[00:05:31] Jen: Right. Well. And especially, especially being a probate attorney. It’s, it’s like you just, you just understand the bureaucracy of it really well.
And then, you know, like, there’s all sorts of different kinds of law that are just like different types of people gravitate towards. You know, like there’s kind of your standard. Like I, you know, like some people will be like, I watched lawyer shows growing up and I just always like to argue and blah, blah, Bl. And I was never that person. I, you know, I was like, I like teaching, but. But I don’t have the energy for teaching kids in a classroom.
[00:06:05] Remy: Right.
[00:06:06] Jen: Thank God. I figured that out pretty quick.
And so I just like, kept on like, okay, like, older, older, older. And then I shadowed an attorney in my hometown that did estate planning and probate and all that, you know, kind of all that stuff. And I realized he was teaching. He was teaching adults that would come in, like, really interested in the answer. And I was like, oh, yeah, that’s. Yeah, let’s do that.
[00:06:29] Remy: So, yeah, that’s neat. It’s funny you say that, like different types of bureaucracy and knowing it. You know, I had a buddy who, another lawyer, tangent, who had, he went on a mission, trip to Africa, met a woman, fell in love. They got married.
[00:06:49] Jen: Oh my God.
[00:06:50] Remy: They had kids. Yep, yep. And then he, they tried to come over here. She cannot get a visa. They go, they do all the paperwork. They do every kind of paperwork and they get turned down. And so then they, they try it again and it’s always the interview where they were failing it. No.
[00:07:08] Jen: And they were already married.
[00:07:09] Remy: Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:10] Jen: With kids. Oh my God. Cuz my, yeah, my husband, My husband has a green card. And we did the interview and that was. And, and it was like the easiest. And I kind of had a theory of, you know, because my husband’s from Germany and I kind of had a theory. I kind of had a theory that there’s. I think there’s, there’s some maybe systemic justice, you know, like, certain countries are easy time of it and some countries don’t.
[00:07:33] Remy: Absolutely. Some countries have an easy time of it and some don’t. I’m. I’m 100% certain of that.
But yeah, he, they struggled. They failed the interview three times, and on the third time they were told, she’s never, she’s never getting a visa now. Like three strikes and you’re out. It’s not happening.
[00:07:52] Jen: Yeah. I mean, it is. Yeah.
[00:07:54] Remy: Yeah. So they they contacted an immigration attorney and he had her a visa inside of like, two, three weeks.
[00:08:03] Jen: Yep.
[00:08:04] Remy: Boom. Done.
[00:08:04] Jen: Yeah, it’s. And you know, the bureaucracy, you know, the ways to, like, appeal stuff, you know, that. You know, the. You just know how to get around the system.
[00:08:12] Remy: Yeah.
[00:08:12] Jen: And. Yeah. And then you just help people through the system.
[00:08:16] Remy: Yeah.
[00:08:17] Jen: I watched minimize.
[00:08:18] Remy: I’ve watched a number. A number of my friends in immigration, specifically. A lot of guys I went to high school with ended up marrying women from China, which is like a weird statistical anomaly.
[00:08:31] Jen: Yeah.
[00:08:32] Remy: But I’ve watched quite a few of them struggle through that. That process on their own. And then my. My closest friend, he’s also watched it, and I told him about our mutual friend Paul with his wife from Africa. And so my closest friend, he just got an immigration attorney up front, and she was over here lickety split.
[00:08:51] Jen: Yeah.
[00:08:52] Remy: So it’s wild, man.
[00:08:54] Jen: Yeah.
[00:08:55] Remy: The whole. The whole system.
[00:08:56] Jen: Yeah. Well. And kind of in my area of it, people.
People. I think. I think almost everyone I run into, unless they’ve been through it before, are shocked at, like, what do you mean? I have to go through probate for my husband. I’m his wife. Why would I have to do that? You know, why would you have to do that? It’s me. It’s. It’s all based on assets being stuck in someone’s name.
And then, you know, one of the things that I harp on a lot is you. People. People can. People can have legal documents and they can still have legal messes that are on the table because it’s. It’s. Estate plans are an organizational system. It’s like, okay, here’s how my stuff should transfer or where, you know, like, who should do that? All the rules for that. But you’re at. It’s what your assets say.
So like, a great example is like, people will sign a will and think, okay, now I’m out of the bureaucracy of it. It’s like, no, no, no. This is for the bureaucracy of it. This is telling the court system, I want to do something different than what the law would do if I didn’t have a will, but it’s still for.
[00:10:07] Remy: Right.
[00:10:07] Jen: And then, like, if you’re like, if you own your house together, great. But does it have the magic language on the deed to transfer automatically? Maybe, maybe not. And then I have to do stupid probate.
If, you know, if it was a house that, you know, someone bought as a single person and they got married and they never. They never updated how the house is owned.
[00:10:28] Remy: Oh, wow.
[00:10:29] Jen: That can Go all haywire. Like, it’s all what these assets say. And, and that’s what determines whether or not you have to go through the court system.
[00:10:38] Remy: So my wife and I own two cars together. We’re both on the title together.
They’re both our cars that we own. Just flat out, if I were to get in a wreck on the way home from work tomorrow, there’s no guarantee that a. She’s getting what, like the insurance payout from the vehicle or like that she’s keeping.
[00:10:59] Jen: It depends on. It depends on exactly what that car title says and what.
Because I know, I know up here, like, I, I’ve always, like car title has to say something. But always check with vehicle services because that’s like their. That’s their gig. And I never. I never quite remember it because we. Because up here in Minnesota, conjunctions on the car title mean a whole lot. You can have, and you can have or. And one means survivor gets it and one means it doesn’t.
But every state kind of has an amount that says, okay, after a certain amount, or, I’m sorry, under a certain amount. And if you don’t. And if you don’t have real estate, you don’t need to bother the court system with it. And for most families, it’s like, oh, thank God, you know, like, lots of things can transfer automatically, but if what is like, stuck in that person’s name is. Is small, then, you know, then you can bypass the court system because it’s just not enough to bother the court system with it.
[00:11:57] Remy: Oh, that’s neat. That’s. That’s. That’s good to know.
[00:12:01] Jen: Yeah. Yeah, but I like, there’s lots of culprits for this stuff. Like.
[00:12:05] Remy: Yeah.
[00:12:05] Jen: You know, like how the, how the house is titled, what the cars say, what the. My. Yeah. My husband’s also working, so he might pass back and forth. But another one is like fun money accounts. You know, like, sometimes spouses will have, like, not the joint accounts. And I’m like, okay, but like, who do you have your spouse’s beneficiary? Because you die, that’s frozen. The bank’s going to say, hey, that dead person ain’t walking in the door. And I need someone with, like, legal authority. And just because you’re the wife doesn’t mean I always pick on husbands dying first. But just because you’re the wife doesn’t mean anything.
[00:12:40] Remy: You know, I think statistically we do.
[00:12:42] Jen: Yeah. Oh, yeah. The statistics are way, way in favor of the wives surviving.
[00:12:48] Remy: Yeah, it’s. Cause we’re dumb.
[00:12:51] Jen: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, something like that. I think like just health wise, right. Like, like lifespans are shorter and then like, like between couples, a lot of, you know the. Statistically men are usually like slightly older than women anyway. And then so it, yeah, it’s in. And I harp on it as a gender issue, you know, like women, women are the ones who bear the brunt of this, you know, like they’re the ones who are stuck going through probate. They’re the ones who are caring for parents. They’re the ones who are doing their parents probate. Like it’s just, it falls on what’s the.
[00:13:30] Remy: I have, I gotta, I gotta start writing down questions now.
What’s the, like what’s the biggest shark out there picking on these recent widows and. Or widowers to be like the vultures? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The people that smell the blood.
[00:13:49] Jen: Yeah. Well I think the biggest one that we just consistently see are, are people will call, sniffing around to see if you’re going to sell the house, you know, like, oh, you’re interested in selling the house, sell it to a flipper. And I’ll field those calls because I’m publicly an attorney for someone’s estate and I’ll be like, you know, yeah, that’s great. But that’s so rare that they can’t find a normal buyer and they should be getting fair market value. Why, you know, why should they sell to you for a discount? Just because they’re in a bad position. You know, there’s a lot, there’s a lot of like just old school, biblical, Old Testament, like just stuff that comes in.
[00:14:28] Remy: Yeah.
[00:14:28] Jen: You know that you’re like, I’m sorry this widow isn’t just like fall off the, you know, fall off the truck.
[00:14:35] Remy: Yeah.
[00:14:35] Jen: If you can just like, you know, make some profit off of that. So. Yeah.
[00:14:40] Remy: Golly, yeah. It’s wild. It’s wild that there are even profit bearing industries around. Like widows, you know.
[00:14:50] Jen: Yeah. But, but also like funerals. I mean. Yeah, funeral homes. You know, like on the one hand there’s a lot, there’s a lot of discussion of like of, you know, because I kind of keep my eye on some of the conversations in death services and you know, like, like probates aren’t cheap. Court, you know, court has fees sometimes they’re crazy.
One of the big scary things is some states will have the court system take a percentage of the estate as the fee.
Some states will let attorneys take a percentage of the, of the estate as a fee. And Minnesota doesn’t let either the attorneys or the court system do that.
You know, we got, we have to earn our fees.
[00:15:33] Remy: Right.
[00:15:33] Jen: We have to show our work.
[00:15:35] Remy: That’s good.
[00:15:36] Jen: Yeah, but, but it’s a, it’s a real burden. I mean, you talk about some other. Like, I, like I’m in Minnesota, but Iowa lets attorneys take, we call them statutory fees where it’s a percentage. Or California lets the court system take statutory fees where it’s a percentage and it’s, it’s super expensive just for kind of normal people with a home, you know, and vehicles and some bank accounts, maybe retirement. And it’s, it’s a big problem.
[00:16:11] Remy: It’s.
Could you turn down, like, I would want to turn down a statutory fee if I were an attorney just like out of, out of principle, you know, like, just because it feels like it’s like those, those big class actions. You have these big class action lawsuits, and the ones that are making all the money are the attorneys for the defendant and the attorney for the class. They’re making tons of money. And then I get a check for $6.08.
[00:16:39] Jen: Yeah, well, I mean, there’s a, there’s also a whole discussion of, you know, because we’re a highly regulated system, like regulated industry. And so a lot of those, you know, part of their business model is like, they’re also taking a lot of cases to court where they don’t win. Right. And so that all. So, like, it has to come all out in the wash. Statutory fees for probate. It’s a little, I mean, it’s just something that we don’t have in Minnesota. So it’s easy for me to sit back and say, like, that’s awful for you guys to do it. And to some extent I, I do think that. But then, then again, it’s like, well, what’s their business model? But.
[00:17:15] Remy: Right.
[00:17:15] Jen: But it, but it also, like, I. Probably one of my biggest concerns with it, I guess, as a system is it doesn’t incentivize, like, truly guiding people to say, how can we minimize all of this stuff? You know, like, just to take, you know, like, I, I’d rather show people how to minimize this and pay me less in the long run.
[00:17:38] Remy: Right. You know, so you Christians, I have to. I have a death question for you. Yeah.
Let’s say my. And this, this, this might be a state by state thing, maybe not. I don’t know. But let’s say my dad runs up a thousand credit cards to the max and he dies, and then they call me and they’re like, hey, your dad died with all these credit cards. You got to pay them off. Because I’m gonna tell them, no.
[00:18:16] Jen: Yeah, no. Yeah, I tell people. And, you know, again, like. Like, you. You hit on it. Like, there’s a lot of this type of. Like, particularly this area, this type of law, like the law of death that is very state specific. But there’s some. There’s some basic rules that’s applicable in any state, and one of them is you can’t inherit debt. Now, you can’t. Like, your inheritance can be affected by debt because those creditors have to be paid off before you can inherit.
But simply because you’re a relative, they can’t be like, don’t you feel bad your dad left all this crap, and don’t you want to make it right? They’re not supposed to do that. And there’s actually, like, federal creditor rules that have laid that out of, like, don’t do that to grieving people.
[00:19:04] Remy: That’s good.
[00:19:06] Jen: Yeah, that’s good.
[00:19:07] Remy: My. When my grandfather died, there were people calling my dad. This was back in 1980, something. There were people calling my dad about his, you know, his credit cards or whatever. And, you know, well, you have to pay him off. And, you know, I mean, I guess, like, if you accept. Accept. If you accept the terms. You know what I mean? If you agree to do it, then you’re. Then you’re in for it.
[00:19:29] Jen: Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of, like, hooks, right? Like, if you’re a co. Signer on something, right? If you’re. If you’re. If you’re like, the executor of the estate and you mess up, you pay somebody and there isn’t enough to go around. That’s why, like, that’s why, you know, families are. Families are like, well, do we have to use a lawyer? I’m like, technically, no, the judge doesn’t care if you fill out the forms. However, if you pay someone off too fast, then you’re gonna be personally on the hook for screwing up.
[00:19:57] Remy: Right.
[00:19:58] Jen: And, you know, so you probably. It’s. It’s worth it to get a little in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:20:08] Remy: It’s like, how many. How many times have you. Have you done this? And the, you know, the average person, it’s. I’ve never done this before in my life.
[00:20:15] Jen: And it’s.
[00:20:16] Remy: The probate attorney says, great. Well, I’ve done this, you know, a thousand times.
[00:20:19] Jen: Yeah.
[00:20:19] Remy: This year.
[00:20:20] Jen: Every day.
[00:20:20] Remy: You know.
[00:20:21] Jen: Every day. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yep.
[00:20:24] Remy: How does.
Okay, last fun probate question, then I want to get to the theology questions.
Have you ever seen someone just, like, be really petty and encourage all the fighting in, like, their, their will or whatever?
[00:20:40] Jen: Oh, oh, man.
[00:20:41] Remy: Just like, I want to leave this in the most confusing and uncomfortable way specifically so that everyone has to fight about it.
[00:20:49] Jen: Oh, that’s a good question. The lovely thing, I’m, I’m in a, I’m in a situation where I get, I get to refer the family fights out.
[00:20:58] Remy: Oh, beautiful.
[00:20:59] Jen: Like, yeah, I tell people I, you know, hey, look, I help, I help families fight bureaucracy. I don’t help, I don’t help families fight family. If you need that, you need it like a real lawyer. Well, real lawyer, but like, you need a lawyer who, who was like, I watched LA Law and I, I always argued with people and that’s why I went to law school. And I’m like, I didn’t do. I didn’t go to law school for that. I went to law school. Like, get you through the crap, you know? Yeah, so. So yeah, let them figure out how.
[00:21:26] Remy: They want to do it and then, and then I’ll help you do it that way.
[00:21:29] Jen: Right?
[00:21:30] Remy: That’s all right. We’ll just clip around. That sounds good.
No one will even know that this, this skips. It’s just. This is gonna be like five. A five minute jump that no one’s gonna know about.
So how does being a Lutheran, first off, how did you, have you always been a Lutheran? How did you get there? Walk me through that.
[00:21:58] Jen: I, in some ways feel a little bit like the Missouri Senate princess.
[00:22:03] Remy: Okay.
[00:22:04] Jen: I had. So my great grandfather was a Missouri Senate pastor back when they were still speaking German. The FBI knocked on his door as a part of family Lord. During the whole switch over to English back In like the 20s, 30s, he was a, he was a pastor in western South Dakota between Pine Ridge and Rosebud.
I. We’re kind of, we’re kind of dead with Lutherans. Not incredibly pious, but very, but very, like, opinionated on theology.
[00:22:36] Remy: Excellent.
[00:22:38] Jen: Yeah, yeah, we’re the fun ones. We’re the fun ones. So, yeah, I grew up. Grew up. Missouri sened.
And I attended. I veered a. Veered off the Missouri ascended path when I went to the Association Free Lutheran Bible School.
Yeah, I was with. Yeah, so I was with the pious Scandinavians and I was. Yeah, I was with the good folk over there, though. Yeah. But through that met my husband, who is a, who is a German from off the boat. German. Lutheran. So that was kind of funny.
[00:23:16] Remy: Oh, wow.
[00:23:17] Jen: Yeah.
[00:23:17] Remy: How’s that? How does that work out?
[00:23:19] Jen: Good.
[00:23:21] Remy: Yeah.
[00:23:22] Jen: Yeah.
[00:23:23] Remy: Does he. Does he have strong opinions about American Lutheranism and. Because, I mean, it’s like. It’s like, right from. Right from the source here, you know, for him.
[00:23:33] Jen: Yeah, well, and it’s. I mean, because. Because he, like, a lot of people grew up in the. In, like, the ekd, ekl.
[00:23:45] Remy: I forget that, like, the state church.
[00:23:47] Jen: Like, the state mainstream. And so there’s a lot of Calvinism, you know, like, mirror. You know, it’s why. It’s why my forefathers left, you know, so.
So. So, like. And. And, like, we are both very, like, anti Jason Gooda. I went to school with Jason Gooda.
[00:24:05] Remy: I’m also anti Jason Goodham.
[00:24:07] Jen: Oh, yeah, sorry. Yeah, sorry. No, no. I’m going to use his phrase of anti generic American Christianity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I would say I’m much more like, like, theologically opinionated. Like, we’re. Our oldest is currently in confirmation, so we’ve been comparing notes on, like, what was your confirmation? Like, what was. And I’m like, mine was a lot more rigorous than everybody.
Missouri Stud is no joke.
[00:24:38] Remy: Are you guys. I’m. I’m studying right now in sim. We’re going over confirmation. This. That’s what I’m. The class I’m taking this quarter is like, catechesis and teaching.
[00:24:48] Jen: Oh, sure. Yeah.
[00:24:49] Remy: How to catechize. And confirmation is, like, the smallest part of this class because it was like, look, if that’s the only time you’re doing it, then you’re not doing it. Right.
[00:24:59] Jen: Right. Yeah.
[00:25:00] Remy: Are you guys. Y’all are big on, like, the running through it at home and making sure, like, we’re.
[00:25:06] Jen: We could be better.
[00:25:08] Remy: It’s good to everybody. Geez.
[00:25:10] Jen: Yeah. I mean, we could be better. We’re not nearly. Nearly as good as, you know, we should be or, like to be or, you know, all the things. But. Yeah, but also, like. And this is something of, I think, being Missouri Senate. You know, I’m. I grew up in the 80s and 90s, so that was a particular generation within the Missouri Senate. And part of our Sunday school in catechism was like, yeah, so how you. Like, how are you gonna not be a Nazi? How are you gonna be an actual Christian?
So it was like, yeah, and it’s something. I teach Sunday school in our local church, and I get to do this now with my sixth graders, but give them the hiding place and be like, hi. Hi. You’re going into confirmation. So this is Christianity, right? You know, like, It’s. Yeah. Yeah. So in our, like, having hard conversations with. With God and. And theology and the particular Lutheran way to approach and handle it, which I mean, like, daily I have, like, that’s my job. Right. That’s my day job. Is difficult conversations. You’re gonna die. Let’s talk about that.
Or, you know, your person died. Let’s. Let’s get through it. And.
And there’s so much of that that Lutheranism is. Is able to, like. Like, it. It doesn’t just have an answer for it. It’s okay not having the easy answers for it or it undermines the easy answers that Don.
I tell people, I think that. Well, so when I was in high school, my dad died of very quickly, catastrophic cancer. Just kind of.
And I tell people that if I wasn’t raised Lutheran, if I didn’t have, like, the Lutheran answers of not having easy answers to that, you know, to something like that, if I was in a megachurch, I’d be a Nyla. Like, I’d be like, yeah, this is all crap, and everything’s all crap.
[00:27:19] Remy: And it’s really crazy how that. That. How to. How sort of pop theology.
[00:27:27] Jen: Oh, there’s so. It’s so prevalent, and it’s so damaging.
[00:27:30] Remy: Yeah, yeah, it. And it just. It does not survive first contact with.
[00:27:35] Jen: Right.
[00:27:35] Remy: Just anything.
[00:27:37] Jen: Right, right. I mean, like, the. The fact that, you know, I could be in a church that wasn’t just. Just a. Kind of normal. Well, it just wasn’t like, just like a. Hey, we get together on Sundays. Mainstreamy church. You know, it was. It was like, no, we actually believe this stuff.
[00:27:56] Remy: Right.
[00:27:57] Jen: But then also, like, hand in hand, like, bad things happen to good people. We don’t know why, you know, Job. Yeah, let’s talk about Job. That’s a book we can talk about in, like, with Sunday schoolers, you know, like.
Or, like. Like, why. Why did the Holocaust. You know, like, we don’t have an answer to that. We just know that we have to love our neighbor. That’s all we know. You know, we know where we go. We know that this work is done, and all we’re here to do is love our neighbor. And that’s. That’s it. And if I didn’t. If, like, there’s no way I’d survive what I went through when I was a kid or just my day job if I didn’t have, you know, that kind of framing.
[00:28:40] Remy: Yeah, it’s. It’s interesting. I. One of my guests, he’s actually recorded for this season as well, but I had him on season two, I think, Pat Flynn, he’s a philosopher and a Roman Catholic. And one of the things he pointed out was that. Yeah, it was a very good interview, but one of the things he pointed out was that it seems as though, regarding the problem of evil, we live in a world that is evil. Like, it’s. There’s not so little evil that there’s not a problem of evil, but there’s also not so much evil that we all don’t just kill ourselves right away. You know, there’s. There seems to be just enough bad things in this world that it tests and purifies your faith rather than, you know, turning you away. Yeah. Driving you into despair or anything like that. There’s. It seems as though the world is still somehow engineered to produce saints, you know?
[00:29:54] Jen: Yeah.
[00:29:55] Remy: I find that very compelling.
[00:29:58] Jen: That’s it. Yeah. That’s a really interesting.
That’s a really interesting place, you know, that life can still be beautiful even in the midst of the worst.
[00:30:08] Remy: Yeah.
[00:30:09] Jen: Yeah.
[00:30:11] Remy: Does your. Does your job helping people with. With probate things and this sort of end of life and all this. Yeah.
How often does this afford you an opportunity to share the love of Christ? And what does that look like in your day job?
[00:30:30] Jen: Yeah. So, like, if we were, you know, generic American Christianity, right. I’d be like, hardly ever. Because it would have it. Right. Because it would be like, well, how many like, persons doing their will have I brought to Christ?
None.
[00:30:46] Remy: Right. None.
[00:30:48] Jen: But. But the kind of relief I can give to a widow who is at a bank and the bank is saying, you can’t pay the employees of your business.
The relief that I can bring, there’s a lot of. And this is what I’m really, really kind of excited to delve into is all of these end of life issues, like, how do we view death, how do we view legacy, how do we view, like, all of these mortality, all of these things. And there is kind of this, this pop view, Instagram Y view. It’s a. It’s a very popular kind of thing to say of, like, well, death is a friend and death is a duh. You know, like, you know, trying to. Trying to make, like. Make it pretty. Yeah. Paper over it. Paper over it, exactly. Like, make it pretty and it may somehow like, like ease the transition of it. And then. And then this, this also, you know, it. It’s not totally crazy or incompatible with Christian view because, okay, you die and you’re. You’re with Jesus. Yay. You know, but. But there’s so Much of, like, the reality of the separation. That it’s like, no. That, like, there is a reason why this is the negative. There’s a reason.
[00:32:05] Remy: Yeah.
[00:32:06] Jen: You know, why. Why it’s the bad. And so, like, every, you know, every time that I’m, you know, putting someone’s estate plan in place and they get it, and they’re gonna have an easy. Like, I know as they’re doing it, I’m like, you’re gonna get all of this lined up the right way, and you’re gonna be, what your family’s gonna be one of those families that come in and they’re like, this was easier than I expected. Or when I’m helping, you know, when I’m helping that person and release the funds to pay the employees or doing my online stuff where I’m like, here’s how you actually get an estate plan that works. And you know that money you’re paying is actually going to get the result you need it to, like, all of that stuff. I’m like, I’m helping people control, like, the only little bit that they really can to love the neighbors closest to them.
And. And like, I. I’m incredibly angry at death. I. I have nothing but. But just, like, vicious anger towards it. It’s the separator. It is. It is from the devil. Like, I. I just hate it. And it tracks, you know, like, it. It tracks. It. It steals people’s, you know, like. Like people’s people from them. And, you know, it’s there. There’s nothing shiny, you know, natural, like all of those buzz phrases for people to kind of grapple with it, where they spin it positively. I’ve. I’ve never found any of that.
Yeah, and now it’s like my. Like, now I’m just, like, constantly. My day job where I’m fired in it, and it just. That stuff doesn’t track. But the idea that it’s the separator, like, yeah, it. That does track. And. And the fact that I can ease one little corner of it, you know, you know, for my neighbor, is incredibly. It’s empowering, but it’s also like, you know, it’s. It’s the good. It’s that Good Samaritan view of, like, you know, here’s a jacket. Here’s a jacket.
[00:34:10] Remy: Yeah.
So let’s talk about those things that you’re excited to talk about.
[00:34:22] Jen: So I go on podcasts to talk about estate planning, and I love doing that because I, you know, that again, it’s the jacket to my neighbor. Right. It’s Like, I’m, like, I’m gonna show you how to ease this for the people closest to you.
But. And it’s all coming from this Lutheran place. It’s all coming from, you know, from, you know, my particular view of all these things, but I. But it’s never directly talked about, and so I’m like, yes, I can.
[00:34:51] Remy: Let’s go, let’s go. Let’s be direct.
[00:34:55] Jen: So, yeah, you just. What do you want to talk about?
[00:34:58] Remy: So there were a couple of things that you had mentioned, Gosh, just a few minutes ago.
And now I’m struggling to put my hands on any of them, but it’s a lot.
[00:35:14] Jen: Fire hose.
[00:35:16] Remy: That’s okay. Let’s go. Let’s go with.
Let’s go with Memento Mori and just sort of, I guess, the practical side of. Of remembering death.
Does this sound like a good direction?
[00:35:39] Jen: Yes. Yes. Let’s start there. Yeah.
[00:35:40] Remy: Okay.
[00:35:41] Jen: Yeah. So momentum, worry, which I’m not, like, I don’t. I’m not an expert in, you know, but. But I, you know, look into it. It’s, you know, and it’s this idea that. That remembering death is a thing, you know, the. The people who are really into it. There used to be an Instagram nun that was really, really, like. That was her deal, you know, like, skulls and. It looks very gothy. Right. And emo and all of that.
[00:36:11] Remy: It does.
[00:36:12] Jen: And, yeah. And I think it’s this really odd juxtaposition that. That seems like it shouldn’t work, and if you veer too off to one side of it, it absolutely doesn’t work.
But. And this is why Lutheranism, because it can handle the, like, the messy line of it to stay on. That’s incredibly messy and seems incoherent where, you know, death is. There’s nothing positive about it. It is nothing but the separator, you know, but also the fact of. Or the fact in the truth, you know, in Psalms, it’s. It’s like, number your days so that you may become wise. I’m horribly paraphrasing it. That’s no official translation that I am quoting.
[00:37:01] Remy: It’s the official Missouri Synod translation, everybody.
[00:37:04] Jen: No, no, no. Don’t. Don’t put that on them. Nope. Don’t put how I just framed it on them. But this idea that, like, kind of like remembering, like, the way I see it as being scriptural, beneficial, like, edifying, all that stuff, is that you’re constantly trying to remind yourself of your own limits and your own station and place, and that’s something that’s really hard to forget, especially in our American, like, view of the world of, you know, you’re the star of the show. And this is something I struggle with constantly. You know, I’m also, like early 40s, so it’s. It’s the prime of life to struggle with it. But, like, you’re not.
You’re not. You’re not the. The main character. You’re not, you know, and. And you don’t get to create your kingdom.
[00:37:59] Remy: Right.
[00:38:00] Jen: You know, and this is what I see on the daily. You know, this is why I get so hyped up about it is.
And I think a particular generation struggles with that. But. But this notion of, well, I’m going to construct my kingdom, you know, the business I made, the.
The station I had in life, the reputation I had, the. The wealth I created, the land that I bought, you know, all these things are like.
Like approaching it as if it’s your kingdom that you get to control and dictate forever.
And when really it’s like, no, that’s.
And remembering your station, your limits, makes you wise, where you’re saying, this isn’t my kingdom. This is something that I get to be a part of, and this is something I can use to help my neighbor, and maybe my neighbor are my kids, my adult kids who might take this over or maybe don’t want to have anything to do with it. But, you know, anything that we do isn’t a kingdom to ourselves. It’s not our. It’s not a monument to ourselves.
[00:39:10] Remy: Yeah.
Yeah. Wow. What.
So then we. You’re right. We’re not. We’re not trying to build a monument to ourselves.
We’re not going to. Right. The. The sands of time are very good at very quickly eroding any of that.
So what we do hope to leave then is a good legacy. Do you want to talk about legacy?
How do you leave a good legacy?
[00:39:44] Jen: Yeah, how do you leave a good legacy? Well, and I think oftentimes the way we talk about it, particularly in American culture, is that idea of, like, we’re building a monument to ourselves. Like, did I do something so grand, so important?
You know, did I have enough notoriety where I’ll be remembered for, you know, first, for that I’ll just be remembered. And it’s almost like chasing an immortality that doesn’t exist.
[00:40:13] Remy: Yeah.
[00:40:14] Jen: And there. There’s often times in my job where I’m like, oh, yeah, well, like, I know Jesus was talking about, you know, you lose your life, gain it again. I’m. I butcher also. All apologies to Free Lutheran Bible School. This is my lack of, like, I was like, Bible verse reference. Memorization is middling to all.
[00:40:40] Remy: It’s a direct reflection.
[00:40:44] Jen: Should have gone to the right Concordia is what I should have done.
[00:40:48] Remy: I. I am calling Dr. Jason Gugu right now.
I have his phone number.
[00:40:57] Jen: So. Yeah, but like, you, you know, you. You. You gain your life by losing it and vice versa.
[00:41:03] Remy: Right.
[00:41:03] Jen: Like that. That’s. That’s. That was talking about a specific. That was in a specific context, but also, like, in my daily job, I. I can’t tell you how many times I’m like, yep, it’s. That tracks where, you know, maybe I’m talking to a business owner who has. Who has a child, who’s been involved in the business, who’s now in their 50s, and they still don’t want to turn control over to. And it’s like, well, then what is this for? Like, okay, so you die if you can’t, like, loosen your grip just slightly right now. Someday your hand’s going to be forced open.
[00:41:43] Remy: Yeah.
[00:41:44] Jen: And, you know, and the. What you think is this kingdom and monument to yourself is gonna be gone in six months. Like, what are we doing here?
So there’s just so much of. On the daily that I’m like, yep.
[00:41:56] Remy: That traps well in that kind of context, too. Specifically, the legacy that you end up leaving. You want to have some great. Oh, man, it’s, you know, Big Bill of Big Bill Auto Wash, you know, car salvage, an Italian restaurant or whatever. And you think this is what you’re leaving, but the legacy that you end up leaving is actually Big Bill was a controlling, bitter old man who didn’t know when to let go.
[00:42:24] Jen: Right. Yeah. Yep. Or, you know, like, I’m in a region of Minnesota where we just deal with a lot of farms, you know, and that can be an incredible like.
Like standard American view of what a legacy can be. Wow. We’ve had this farm in our family for 100 years, and look at all the cows. And yes. You know, and planning helps. Helps perpetuate that, too. But, like, it’s so much of, like, what are we doing here? Like, what’s the point of all this? You know, Is it to have your name on some sign, you know, three generations from now? Or is it, you know, or is it take, take, take, and your farming, kid, has given you everything and you can’t let go, you know, like, what.
There’s so much of, like, you know, you need to reframe what the point is, you know, and vocation Is kind of again and again is the piece that inserts itself to say, yeah, this isn’t about building a monument to yourself, it’s how are you serving your neighbor. Whether that’s your farming kid, your non farming kid, the kid in the business, the ones that aren’t, the kids that depend on you, the kids that don’t, the kids that shouldn’t be depending on you, but you know, like, what are you doing and using, like the, like. I think about legacy is, you know, you take what you have.
You know, some of us have kids, some of us don’t. Some of us have notoriety, some of us don’t. Some of us have wealth, some of us don’t. But we all have, we all have ways, you know, we all have the specific gifts, all the things that you talk about in vocation of what we bring to the table that can move other people’s, for people forward, that can serve other people and focus, like just kind of getting your mind right to understand, okay, that’s what my legacy is, is how am I moving other people forward? Those are the ripples that last, you know, like, okay, like I, if my kids, you know, like, like understand, understand their place with God, right? Then that has ripple effects that I can’t, you know, that I can’t control. And like praise God, you know, right? And so like, if they, if they understand, like, like the whole justification, it’s finished. It’s not their work, they’re not chasing that. They just have to go love their neighborhood. That’s. Those are effects that, you know, that are boundless. But I happen to have four kids. Lots of people don’t have kids. You know, like one of the, one of the biggest impacts on me being a German, Lutheran, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, right? Like, just like the witness of being, of being like, okay, do you understand Christ well enough to understand that when someone offers you power, you do what Jesus did. You don’t take it, you don’t like seek it, you don’t chase after it. You love your neighbor. You love your neighbor. You love your neighbor. And how can you love your neighbor even when they aren’t your crowd, even when you are told they are your enemies, even when you’re told that they are suspect. How do you love your neighbor? And that has ripple effects that affected a kid in 1990 in South Dakota. You know, we all have ways that we can impact each other. And so often we’re like, well, what happens if I don’t have kids? What happens if I don’t have wealth? What Happens if I’m not known. What happens if my ambitions aren’t fulfilled? And that’s the cultural way of talking about legacy. That doesn’t track.
[00:46:07] Remy: It’s.
It’s interesting.
Legacy is. Vocation is interesting as a topic. I’m preaching tomorrow at my church, and I’m going over Ephesians 5, 22, 33 is what I’m preaching on. And that is Paul’s big Wives, submit to your husbands.
[00:46:34] Jen: Oh, good.
[00:46:37] Remy: That’s.
[00:46:37] Jen: That’s like advanced preaching, right? It’s like that verse.
[00:46:41] Remy: I picked it.
I could have. I could have picked any other text in the lectionary. But it’s so funny because all of the texts in the lectionary that day are all about false religion. Their lips are near me, but their hearts are far from me. All of them. There’s an Isaiah verse, Psalm 40, 14, Mark 7. All of them are about you, Pharisees, who are near to me with your lips, but far from me with your heart. So Israel, who sings my praises but hates their neighbor. You know, Psalm 14, how long will these godless people draw near to you with their lips? Is kind of the. It’s the thrust of every passage. And then right in the middle of it, you have Paul saying, wives, submit to your husbands. And it’s so interesting because it doesn’t seem to fit with the rest, but it does, because Paul says right near the end, in verse, like, I think 32, he says, hey, just so you know, I’m talking. I’m using marriage to explain to you how to be the bride of Christ. I’m not talking about your marriage. I’m talking about your life with Jesus. And it’s so. It’s so interesting because. Because the whole thrust of all of these passages, even the marriage one, because after the marriage one, he does children and parents, and then he does servants and masters. And they all had the same thrust. And the thrust is, you’re not living for yourself. And you’re also. You should not just be living for the hell of it.
You are living for other people.
That is, as Christians, that’s what we do. That’s. How do you submit to the lordship of Christ? How do you submit to God? It’s by loving your neighbor.
It’s by loving your neighbor. You’re not living for you, you’re living for them. You’re living for Jesus. That’s, you know, you’re not really a part of it.
[00:48:47] Jen: Yeah, yeah, well. And there’s so much that we can’t control of that, you know, like this is something that, like, I struggle with because, you know, I went to law school. That opened a world of like, I have a law school classmate who’s the lieutenant governor of Iowa. I was extraordinarily involved in. Yeah, I was extraordinarily involved in politics. I door knocked against a current nominee for vice president. You know, like, I was really, really involved in politics. And there’s so much of any ambitions, you know, like human ambition, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. And I always have to couch it because I also am Lutheran and you know, Lutherans, I think we have a natural aversion to it because of those reason, you know, because of the negative of it.
[00:49:45] Remy: Right.
[00:49:46] Jen: Where ambition is, you try to. You’re trying to build yourself up. You’re trying, you know, in the midst of it, you are not serving neighbor. You are crushing neighbor, you know, to be on top.
And you know, the kind of gin.
[00:49:59] Remy: You don’t understand.
You don’t understand. Once I get on top, I’ll be great. I’ll be. I’ll be the best. Yeah. Just. I just gotta get there first.
[00:50:09] Jen: And you see it and I mean, this was kind of a weird way, but it, but it was one of the best examples of. I’m like, oh, yeah, that’s like the kids get. It is like you think about. You think about sports. Like, that’s the whole point, right? There’s a winner and a loser, right? Second place is first. First loser, all that stuff. And so, like, anytime the Olympics come. Come on. It’s. It’s like this constant conversation of the, of the typical way legacy is talked about. Like, they broke the world record. They set their legacy. And it drives me nuts every single time because I’m like, okay, so in four years, someone else breaks the record and the legacy is poof. Up in smoke. Like, we just talk about the things that are an absolute mirage of any of it. And this was the first Olympics where you see stuff like, oh, what are some. Like, if you’re watching on YouTube, you might notice that I’m a Timberwolves fan.
So, like the relationship with Katie and Carl Anthony or not Carl Anthony Edwards, where like these relationships that built up that were celebrated in the Olympics, or Simone Biles reaches out to Jordan Childs, who’s. Who. Like, if I understand the story right, Jordan Childs is like, no, thank you. I have no interest in this whole rat race of trying to be an Olympian. And Simone Biles is like, I understand that, but do you want to train for it in a totally different mindset of just, like, doing your best, you know? And that’s what legacy is, where you’re reaching out outside of yourself, you know, to say, like, you know, how are we moving each other forward?
What can I do to serve you? You know, to serve the people around me, you know, like. Like, it’s so much bigger than. Than a single person or a team. It’s. It’s moving others forward versus trying to scramble your way to the top.
[00:52:10] Remy: I’m taking notes.
How would you explain legacy to your own children?
[00:52:19] Jen: What are. What. How are you using what you have to move other people’s. Other people forward?
Stop. Full stop.
And so it’s like whether or not. Whether or not you end up having kids, whether or not you. You end up having wealth, whether or not you become a homeowner, you know, like, whether or not you’re known or famous or reach your ambitions or fulfill your dreams, any of those things, you know, you will have things in your life, talents, you know, things. Things that you can use to help your neighbor.
And that’s all it is. That’s all it is. And so it means everyone can do it. Like, there’s. There’s no entrance fee.
[00:53:10] Remy: Are you telling me that we need to. I like how you love God and love our neighbor.
[00:53:19] Jen: I. 100%.
[00:53:21] Remy: Wow.
[00:53:22] Jen: 100%. That’s all it boils down to.
[00:53:25] Remy: Amazing.
[00:53:27] Jen: Yeah. Such wisdom attracts.
[00:53:29] Remy: It does, man. It does, though. That’s the. That’s the thing. Is. Is it.
It’s really not. And I mean, that’s. That’s the. It’s the thrust of, I think, so many things that Jesus even, you know, said that we have written down for us here. Or, you know, like the. Like the.
The parable about don’t. When you’re invited to a feast, don’t go and pick, like, the high place or the seat of honor, you know, go pick the low spot, you know, because that way, if anything, they come to you and say, no, please, you need to move up to a higher spot, to a better spot. You know, it’s this. How do you. How do you esteem yourself? And where you esteem yourself should always be behind where you esteem other people. It’s a good. I think it’s a good metric for learning how to love your neighbor and dealing with your neighbor. When you.
If you can get that. If you can get that gut check, if you can let the Holy Spirit gut check you every time you pass some kind of a judgment on someone where you’re thinking, like, oh, man, you know, wouldn’t want to be that guy, you know, glad, you know, whatever. Immediately you should, you’re, you need to figure out why you’re thinking that way because it’s not correct. And then what can you do to help drive that person forward, you know, if they really aren’t, if they really aren’t in a good place? You know, you see a homeless guy and you’re like, oh, you know, but you should know that’s not that, that’s the attitude we should have. You know, what do you, what do you need?
[00:55:06] Jen: Yeah, well, right, because we, we see a, we see a homeless person, you know, someone or like we see anybody who, who is in need.
[00:55:16] Remy: Yeah.
[00:55:17] Jen: And we see the lack, we see the possibility of the lack of control.
Right.
And this is something that just, I run into so often of where people think they get to have control over things they don’t get to have control over. And then like, you know, because I happen to be. My daily, my daily vocation, you know, is the one place, the one slice of life that is tailor made for you to have a little control here, you know, and use discernment and, and go serve your neighbor with, with this, you know. Right. But when we see others in need in any respect. Oh, and, and actually this actually is a great segue into another topic to cover is how we deal with people in grief. Right. So let’s take it from the homeless. Like, let’s take it from like that physical reflection. But like you, you see a 40 year old mother of, I’ll say four, because I have four kids. And I’m just gonna say that’s a big family because it feels like it.
[00:56:19] Remy: So how many. Hold on, I put a big pause. How many brothers and sisters did you have growing up?
[00:56:27] Jen: Two. Half brothers?
[00:56:28] Remy: Yep. Okay, cool. So I have this theory that I read online somewhere and it is a big family is always your family growing up plus one. So you had three kids in the house growing up. Now you have four and you’re like, that’s a big family.
[00:56:48] Jen: That’s a big family.
[00:56:49] Remy: Yeah.
[00:56:50] Jen: Yeah. Well, another theory that, that like small families make big families and big families make small families, which I also think like, like kids in a big family are like, I’m good with one or two.
[00:57:03] Remy: Yeah. It was so it was so much chaos having eight of us. Right. But at the same time, if you ask them what’s a big family? They’re going to be like, oh man, nine, ten kids, you know, it’s just more than whatever I had.
[00:57:19] Jen: So let’s say you take you know, a widow who lost her husband shockingly, like, totally tragic circumstances.
And what is our natural reaction? We take a step back or, or we are like, oh, God, like, I don’t have control over my life. I need to. I need to work on that. Like, I need, I need, I need, I need. Like, I don’t even need to finish the sentence right. It’s. I need, I need. How in this situation am I getting. Am I getting what I need? What, what, what do I need to send this person so I feel okay about it and can move on with my life? You know, and. And we have such a dysfunctional view of legacy, of control. Like, it’s all interconnected of, you know, our station that we get to control. Blah. You know, what is death?
If I do the right things, then I can stave it off. Or, you know, like, I will be the one who lives into their 80s and then dies peacefully in their sleep. When I’m ready.
[00:58:22] Remy: When I’m ready.
[00:58:23] Jen: Right when I’m ready. And, you know, I did the right thing. So Jesus is going to bless me in that way.
You know, like, it’s a very. It’s a very prosper, you know, theology, you know, mindset. But we, like, as Americans, that’s what we’re constantly being fed, whether it’s from the Christian or not. Like, we just are fed bad. You do the right things, you get the right results. Go do the right things.
[00:58:45] Remy: Well, I mean, that’s. That’s America too. That’s just the whole. That’s the whole country. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You work hard to get it. Yeah.
[00:58:52] Jen: And so we’re confronted in these scenarios where we. We are confronted with the reality that, like, you don’t get. No, no, like, yeah, be a good steward so that you can help your neighbor, but you don’t get to control a lot of this stuff.
And you, like.
And so you get confronted with a widow where her husband suddenly died in a tragic accident. And you take a step back, you know, of like, ooh, I need to rationalize this. I need to make it compute with the idea that we can control. So how did they screw up that I don’t screw this up too?
We come with a how can I help myself first? And if that means, you know, sending something that makes me feel better, great. And this is something that, when my dad died, you know, I. I guess I got to see the brunt of it. My mom, like, I saw my mom and myself bear the brunt from too many people of. They were shocked that someone in their early 50s who wasn’t a smoker, who led a clean lifestyle, went to church, you know, was an elder. All that good stuff be gone. Basically like that. And so many people, you know, took a step back or what, you know, or we’re. We’re like, obviously working out their shock and grief on us. I. I have this thing of, like, yeah, I would really like if Lutherans. This is my one. This is my one beef on Lutheranism. And it’s just a cultural thing. It’s not a theological thing. I think this is better theologically. Can we have funerals? More like. More like Irish Catholics where, like, you take the grieving people and you’re like, you know what? You guys go sit down at a bar, Even if you need something, let me know, and we will go talk about how great that person was. And anything you need, you just sit there and we will get you anything you need. Instead of the grieving line. I hate the grieving line. I’m like, great, we’re working out our grief on the people closest. And Barrett, you know, like, we’re not mourning. Like, yeah, maybe I have a. Maybe I have the bat. Like, maybe I’m the. I’m seeing it wrong. But.
[01:00:58] Remy: No, I don’t think you are. I don’t think you are. Well, and especially because, like, there’s. There is this intrinsic kind of selfishness within people. So there is this, how do I make myself feel better? Even if it’s at the expense of the woman that just lost her husband? Or there’s the other, like, oh, well, how can I make it better for them? Even though you’re thinking that you’re not being selfish, but, like, what you’re trying to do is, like, be a hero.
You know, how can. How do I fix this? And it’s like, well, you know, you don’t, champ. Jesus does.
[01:01:38] Jen: Exactly. Exactly. It’s. It’s. Yeah, it’s. It’s like, okay, if. If you’re presented with an opportunity, like, there were.
In my scenario, there were a couple of families that were just.
Just like, just amazing examples of this.
In my own life of there. It was like an open door policy with one family. It was my best friend’s family when I was in high school. We ended up going to Bible school together and sharing the dorm room. She brought me over to the AFLC side where her parents were like, open door, you know, Jed needs to cut, like, yup.
And then another family in our Missouri Senate church who were like, it was small things of like, okay, you guys are in the hospital, you know, kind of that same open door mentality. Or we like months later, specifically inviting us out of like, hey, we’re going to a concert. You want to come too? You know, the things that, that the people who just looked at the situation of like, that’s awful. I hope that doesn’t happen to me. Okay. I sent a card. Yes, sweet. Bye.
[01:02:48] Remy: Right.
[01:02:49] Jen: And I can move on with life. And they didn’t, you know, and, and just like incredible, you know, or like fixing things around the house, you know.
[01:02:58] Remy: So the, the way that you actually help people.
So, so, so you’re telling me the way you actually help people through this is by loving them.
[01:03:11] Jen: Correct? Yes.
[01:03:13] Remy: Yeah.
[01:03:14] Jen: Right. And what’s love? It’s, you know, it’s service, which means you take a step back and you wait to see what they actually need versus what, what you expect they need.
[01:03:25] Remy: Or want them to need.
[01:03:28] Jen: Right. Or you’re comfortable, you know, like the things that are comfortable. There’s a lot of like Facebook, like, I don’t like saying like Facebook mommy groups, because that’s a terrible derogatory term is that it’s more like just, just like women in different scenarios, like a Lutheran, like I’m part of a Lutheran one, and then a hyper organizing one, because you might guess I’m a hyper organizer.
[01:03:53] Remy: Excellent.
[01:03:53] Jen: But, yeah, but like periodically people will say, like, I’m estranged from this family member and their spouse died. What do I do? Or, or my neighbors, you know, my, my neighbor, my elderly neighbor is dying. What do I do? Right. And, and the first thing is, is take a step back and figure out what they need versus what you need. You know, if it’s that estranged, if that’s, if that’s your estranged loved one, it’s not about like rectifying the relationship. Like, don’t use this, like, don’t use this as an opportunity to rectify the relationship. Just use it. Just say like, okay, is there something I can do that can lighten their burden?
And that’s really, that’s really, like, that’s what you do. Like, that’s how you mourn. With those who mourn is, is what. Is, what is their particular burden? Is there. Am I in any position to be able to do that? And if I’m not, everyone gets to pray. Everyone can do that. And you know, so, so that’s always the mindset to bring into it.
[01:05:00] Remy: I think sometimes too, like with an estranged relative, I think sometimes maybe the best thing you can do is nothing.
Maybe the Best thing you can do is just absolutely nothing beyond reaching out and saying, hey, Craig, heard about your dad. I’m really sorry. I know things haven’t always been the best, but if you wanna talk, whatever, and then leaving it at that.
Cause I mean, especially, like, if you have something like that, like a difficult relationship, trying to repair it, use that moment as a jumping point to repair your relationship is probably gonna do more harm than good.
[01:05:40] Jen: Right? And I think a lot of people, you know, in good faith, right?
[01:05:46] Remy: Yeah. You know, but they want to do the right thing.
[01:05:49] Jen: They want to do the right thing, but they’re. They’re putting themselves, you know, in the center, right, of the, of the grief and the served, right? Like, like centering is kind of a buzzword, but it’s, you know, there’s a lot of cliches and buzzwords I use because they’re true. They, they track when you. When, When.
When you get down to brass tacks with S. Hits the fan like it does. And, and centering is, you know, don’t center yourself when someone dies.
Center the people who should be centered. You know, the spouse, the, you know, the ring, you know, like that. The vocational ring is, you know, you know, and so, yeah, you were a co worker and that’s gonna impact you and that’s gonna affect you. And sometimes it’s very practical ways, and sometimes it’s very like, gut ways.
But then also, like, don’t center yourself. You’re not the one to be centered. You are not in that inner, you know, like, you, you’re on the outside of the ring. You’re not in the inner. Inner of the ring. So center the people who need to be centered. You know, serve them versus trying to see how you can be served.
[01:06:59] Remy: It’s.
I would also like to say it’s really amazing how oftentimes. And this goes for actually just about.
Just about every situation in life that you, that you run across, but especially something like this. It’s. It’s amazing how frequently just really doing nothing can be the right call altogether. You know, if a, If a co worker dies, you know, and, you know, all right, yeah, I knew. I knew the guy. We, you know, we said hey to each other every day for, for, you know, however long. But, like, we weren’t best friends. I never hung out with him or whatever, you know, that. Do you.
Do you need to do something or do you need something for you to do? You know what I mean? Like that, that difference in there. Is there something the family needs? Is there something the family needs you to do, or is there something you actually just want to do for you?
[01:07:56] Jen: You know, and something like in these Facebook groups where it comes up, a common one, I say is like, just mark something on the calendar, you know, down the road, where it’s out of your brain now and all of that, but it’s not out of theirs where you can do something for them, you know, just. You know, just to bring up a bright spot, you know, hey, hey, if you’re on the level. If you’re not on the level of getting coffee together, don’t use now to get on to ask to go out for coffee. That’s silly. You know, remember your vocational relationships, people.
[01:08:32] Remy: That’s right. That’s right.
[01:08:34] Jen: But if you are, then say, okay, they have a busy time right now. And so I’m gonna put something on the calendar so that I am the one making. Making the steps. This is how I serve. I am taking the initiative. I am putting it. I’m. I’m making that my burden, not theirs, that I will reach out to them in six months and say, hey, you want to grab coffee? I missed you, you know, I’m glad to see you. When, you know, and. And the people get different. People get different, you know, and. And remembering that, like, oh, my friend’s different now that she lost, you know, that she lost her parent.
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s to be expected. And. And having the, you know, like, is there a relation? Is. Is there a way that. That we can have that relationship? Being different people now, you know? You know, just be the one to bear a little bit of the burden for them.
[01:09:27] Remy: I, like, reach out.
I like the.
Like the. The Jewish tradition of the. The sitting Shiva.
[01:09:41] Jen: Yeah.
[01:09:42] Remy: You know, let’s just. Let’s just go over to, you know, Mary’s brother died. Let’s just go over to her house and sit.
And whatever she’s doing, we’re doing. She’s just sitting there quiet. We’re sitting there. She’s crying. We’re gonna cry with her. You know, let’s just.
[01:10:03] Jen: Yup. And they. They get to be in the driver’s seat, you know, like, they. Yeah, and this is. This.
[01:10:10] Remy: I’m just. I’m just an outlet to help you process.
[01:10:13] Jen: Right, Right.
[01:10:14] Remy: Yeah.
[01:10:15] Jen: Right. And this is something, you know, the generic American Christian church again, I think if I hadn’t been raised Lutheran, that, like, I don’t know if welcoming the tension, but is so comfortable in the tension, accepts the tension, you know, where my pastors weren’t going to feed Me easy BS answers, you know, they were like, no, we’re just here, you know, you’re in the midst of confirmation. We’re here.
[01:10:40] Remy: Yeah.
[01:10:41] Jen: You know, and not like, oh, we’re gonna, we’re gonna feed you some, some of the, the trite crap that doesn’t track. Like, like what I hated. What I hated is a 14 year old girl who lost her father. And I was like, my dad was a girl dad, you know, I was a dad’s girl. And like, like, and the thing that I hated was when people say, well, he’s in a better place or he’s with Jesus now. I like, I literally wanted to break faces, which is why Jesus made me a five foot.
Because he’s like, I don’t think I want you any bigger than you are, child.
[01:11:20] Remy: Pitbull energy, Chihuahua body.
[01:11:22] Jen: Exactly. Exactly. That’s. That’s right. That was. Yeah, that worked out well. But to like that, that sentiment would make me so angry because I’m like, so you’re telling me Jesus doesn’t, doesn’t want.
Because I need my father.
[01:11:38] Remy: Yeah.
[01:11:39] Jen: I need my father and I don’t, I don’t have him. And that’s not, there’s no walking that back.
[01:11:45] Remy: That’s a better place.
[01:11:46] Jen: Wanted this, right? Yes. And I’m like, yeah, I get that. He’s like that, like God ended the separation, but now I’m separated.
[01:11:56] Remy: Yeah.
[01:11:56] Jen: You know, and, and so some of the trite stuff that gets thrown out that’s just like, it’s maybe not all the times bad theology. Sometimes it’s a straight up bad theology. You know, they’re an angel now what?
But sometimes incomplete theology, right? Yeah. If it’s all good because this, you know, like Jesus needed them more.
All right, well that’s kind of, that’s bad theology, number one. And number two, like, like, then why did Jesus raise Lazarus? Why did he mourn with. Why did he tell us to mourn with those who mourn? Like, it’s because all of this is a separation and he defeated death so that we don’t have to be separated from God, but we still. Like, until, you know, until I feel like I’m very, I’m very opinionated theologically except for revelation. Maybe that’s a Lutheran. Maybe that’s a very Lutheran thing to me. I don’t know.
[01:12:52] Remy: I don’t know. I’m pretty opinionated on it.
[01:12:54] Jen: I know a lot of. Yeah, right. Usually the pastors are.
But like, like until, until, you know, everything’s been restored. Until everything, all is Worked out physically, all of it. Like, we will have the separation and the fact that there is a God who hates this as much as we do. Yeah, like that tracks. That’s like.
[01:13:17] Remy: And that’s so key.
Yeah, that’s so key that God hates, like God hates this too, you know? And I mean you. Yeah, you do have to wrestle with them. Why does he allow these things to happen? But I mean, ultimately the solace is he’s on your team.
[01:13:38] Jen: Yes.
[01:13:38] Remy: Because if it’s, if it’s. Jesus just needed your daddy more. Well, now Jesus isn’t on your team. Jesus himself, he’s the bad guy. Because. Yeah. Because I need, I need my dad, you know.
[01:13:50] Jen: Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, like being again, again. This is the third time I’ve said this. If I, I don’t. I think that if I wasn’t in Lutheranism being catechized in the Lutheran, you know, small catechism, all of that. If I, if I didn’t have that, that worldview in that storm, I wouldn’t be Christian, I’d be a nihilist, I think. You know, like, I would be like, nothing matters. Nothing matters. Nothing matters.
Because it’s like this was never supposed to be the way it was. This is not normal. This is not natural. We weren’t supposed to have death. And it made God so like, angry that he had to fix it and he would do anything to fix it.
[01:14:36] Remy: Yeah.
[01:14:37] Jen: You know, and it’s like, okay, yes, that tracks, you know, that, that makes sense to a 14 year old girl, you know, daddy’s girl who lost her dad.
[01:14:50] Remy: That’s tough. I, I couldn’t.
[01:14:52] Jen: Yeah.
Like, also, maybe this is why I was German American, you know, like, but also, like, like, you know, it brings up the question of like, well, why did good things happen? Bad things happen to good people. Why does God allow xyz? He’s. He’s the controls everything and yet can’t. Can’t control this. Like, why couldn’t the crappy dad have gotten cancer? You know, you know, like all of that stuff, but you know, but also like Luther, you know, German, Lutheran. Like I was at 10, 12, 13, was being like, Dietrich Bonhoeffer was hung by the Nazis right before the Americans who did. Like, bad things happen because this is a fallen world. Like, this is not the world that God created. This is the world that he.
[01:15:38] Remy: Sin destroyed.
[01:15:39] Jen: Sin destroyed. Right? Sin, death, separation, it’s. It’s all the same stuff to me. It’s all, to me, to me, it’s like the venn diagram for that stuff doesn’t overlap. It’s. It’s a perfect circle thing. And. And this, you know, like, it.
This is not how God wanted it to be, but he. He loved us, wanted relationship with us, and so he couldn’t have robots.
[01:16:06] Remy: Yeah.
[01:16:06] Jen: And so. So that meant that. That there had to be a choice, and it got chosen and now, you know, and so it’s just part of. Part of the equation. And God hates it as much as we do.
[01:16:26] Remy: Do you have people that come to you professionally? And I’m certain the answer is yes, that I just found out I have terminal cancer and I’ve got X amount of time, and I’m trying to get it in order and outside of the. Outside of. Of the physical. Prepare them for death. Yeah. What other ways do you. Do you try and help prepare these people for death? Like, is there.
Do you. Do you ever feel the need to, like, emotionally, like, their other.
[01:17:02] Jen: Emotionally connect?
[01:17:03] Remy: Like. Yeah. Like, the people around them that, like, you know, you’re meeting with this guy and his wife, and it’s like, look, now when this happens, we’re getting everything in order, but you’re gonna go through some stuff, you know.
[01:17:14] Jen: Yeah.
[01:17:14] Remy: How do you help people prepare for death? It’s got, like, it’s got to be holistic. Right.
[01:17:20] Jen: Surprisingly, I haven’t found it to be.
[01:17:22] Remy: Really.
[01:17:23] Jen: Yeah, I haven’t found it to be. And I don’t know if. I don’t know if that’s a me thing or if that’s, you know, like, I’m a bit of a cold fish. Maybe I don’t like emotion, and maybe that’s part of, you know, part of what, you know, what I experienced. And. But.
But I also think that that’s maybe part of my vocational calling. Right. Is that. Is that.
[01:17:57] Remy: You’Re not their counselor, you’re not their. Their pastor.
[01:18:00] Jen: And I think there’s. I mean, my. Periodically. And where I work, all the attorneys do this. They do estate planning, probate. Like, we’re all constantly dealing with death on a regular basis. And so periodically, we’ll just be like, hey, I’m having a rough day because of xyz. Like, this is our daily. You know, but also, like, my vocational calling is I want to minimize the bureaucratic bleep.
You know, I want to take. This is the one thing we can take off the table. Let’s take it off the table so that you have more space, ability to deal with the other stuff. Right. And so my vocational calling is let’s take this crap off the table.
And that’s why, like, I’m so passionate about it.
That’s why, like. Like, being a lawyer is my day job, but then outside of when I go home, I’m working on my website. I’m trying to, like, educate people, you know, doing all the. All of this, you know, be the Dave Ramsey of Tess. Because if people understood the basics of how this worked, you could say, okay, this is a way that, like, I can control. I can love my family. I can love the people closest to me so that, you know, all the things. You know, all the ways that I can leave a legacy. All those things we talked about that are not just the money. I can take this bureaucratic stuff off the table so they have more space to remember those things, acknowledge those things, work through the emotional stuff. You know, like, I’m not holistic, but I’m pulling a huge burden off the equation.
[01:19:48] Remy: Right.
[01:19:49] Jen: So that they can holistically deal with all the crap.
[01:19:52] Remy: Sure.
Yeah, Absolutely.
Absolutely. And that’s. I mean, and that’s such a big.
It’s such a big part of it. The. The whole, like, the. Is dealing with the estate and all the stuff and all the. All the bureaucracy of it is such a big. The only other part of it that I think that is. Is as big and as difficult to deal with is, like, the funeral arranging.
[01:20:18] Jen: Yeah.
[01:20:18] Remy: You know, and it’s like these are the. These are the. These are the two things that you have to deal with right away, and they’re the two things that no one’s.
[01:20:26] Jen: In a mind frame, too.
[01:20:27] Remy: Yeah. Emotionally, mentally, spiritually. They’re the two things you want to deal with the absolute last.
[01:20:33] Jen: Yes, absolutely.
[01:20:35] Remy: Yeah.
[01:20:36] Jen: Yeah, yeah. It. It’s. It really, like, it really sucks. And that’s part of. That’s part of my job is when people, you know, especially the. Especially widows or widowers, where they’re like, what do you mean, I have to go to the courthouse? What do you mean, I have to be executor my spouse’s estate. We. We’re not a blended family. Why would I need to do any of that?
[01:20:54] Remy: Yeah.
[01:20:55] Jen: You know, and. And it’s like this. This comes at the worst possible time. Like. Like most of the people I deal with have never dealt with legal stuff. They’ve never dealt with a lawyer. And. And. But they’re forced to because there are assets stuck in a dead person’s name, and the only way to get it out is going through the court system.
And. And so, yeah, it. It sucks because it’s stuff that it comes at the literal worst possible time.
[01:21:23] Remy: Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, absolutely the worst possible time. Yeah, yeah.
It’s, I mean, it’s, it’s good work, though, and it’s, it’s tough work and I think, I think you have to be suited for it. I think, I think you really have to have a kind of distance maybe.
I don’t know. I, I, I worked in animal control for four, four and a half years, something like that. And I mean, I, you know, there, there’s the, oh, yeah, we get a. Pets adopted and you know, there’s all that. Oh, we found your, we found stuff. We found Fluffy. We brought him home. But then there’s like, there’s the animal abuse cases. There is, there is the not animal abuse cases. There are the, there’s like the murder cases and the child abuse cases and all of that where we had to come in and seize animals and all of that is all tied in together. And so you get to see all of that too, you know, and it’s, I just was always really, really grateful that I’m like hard adhd, because it’s just, that’s interesting. Out of sight, out of sight, out of mind. It’s gone.
[01:22:49] Jen: Yes. And I’ve never, like, I’ve never, never been diagnosed. I don’t know. But I, but I totally relate to that of like there, there’s a particular type of brain to be able to say like, and now I’m onto this and now I’m onto that.
[01:23:04] Remy: Flipping a switch and we’re. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that, like, I think still, emotionally, you’re processing it all in the background, even if you’re not actively thinking about it.
[01:23:18] Jen: Absolutely. Yeah.
[01:23:19] Remy: Is like, there are times where my wife, my wife has been like, why are you in such a bad mood? And I’m like, I’m not in a bad mood as I slam the cabinet, you know, and I don’t even realize.
[01:23:29] Jen: Like, it’s in to take some stock.
[01:23:32] Remy: So, like. Yeah, it’s, I mean, I think that still happens, but like, it’s, it’s definitely a huge blessing if you’re the kind of person that can sort of box things off. Yeah. And, you know, go from box to box in your mind. Yeah.
[01:23:47] Jen: Yeah.
[01:23:48] Remy: I think it takes a special kind of person to do, to do the hard jobs, you know? And yeah, I think what you do is probably a hard job. It’s not something I would want to do.
I don’t. You’ve never, you’ve never had someone walk into your office and been like, man, this is the best day of my life.
[01:24:05] Jen: Right, Right. Yeah. Although. And this is actually, like, it ties it back into your life.
This is like, literally one of the most gratifying parts of my job. Well, one of the most gratifying parts of my job is saying, like, we’re done. Like, you don’t need to call the lawyer. We have walked through the bureaucracy. Things are settled. You have access. You have what you like. I love that part.
But also, like, the estate planning part, there’s a shocking number. Like, I need to start, like, just like, making marks and, like, under my desk or something when people go, oh, this is such a relief. Like, oh, this is finally done. Now, part. Part of my soapbox of estate planning is like, okay, like, so, like, the common misconception is, like, you sign your legal documents and that’s just going to rule the day, Gets you out of probate, blah, blah, blah. It’s like, no, no, no. It’s. It’s your assets. This is just your structure of organization. And if your assets say what they supposed to. What they’re supposed to do, that’s the magic sauce. That’s when I’m. I’m talking to your family. I’m like, yeah, we got to do a couple things, but that’s. That’s it. And so, like, both.
When I’m, like, doing. When I’m. When I’m doing an estate plan and the families, like, now we understand what’s going to happen. Now we know how we control that. Like, this is such a relief. Or when I’m working with the families and they’re like, I thought that is going to be a lot harder than it was. I’m like. And I’m thinking, oh, it would have been. But I’m like, no, because you’re. You’re not only did your person actually go to the step because, like, the. The. The statistics are awful. It’s like a third of people do any legal documents. And, like, just. Just my. Just me. Anecdotally, I would say half the people who have legal documents, we still have to go through probate. We still got to do other stuff. Because they didn’t connect. Like, they didn’t. No one explained it to them. No one. Like, it’s not talked about a lot where you do the legal documents. But then what do your deeds say? What do your beneficiary designations say? How does all this stuff fit together to follow the plan? Like, I. I use the analogy of a closet. Like, you hire a lawyer to get a great Closet system together. You know, that’s your will, your trust, your health care, like, all these documents.
And then. But then you have to make sure that your assets, you know, the deeds, the beneficiary designations are. Are, like, pointed in the right spot. So you’re. So your things, your sweaters, your jeans, your stuff are in the right spot. And if they’re not, then I still have a lot of bureaucracy I have to slog through. But it’s so gratifying when I have the families who are like, oh, this is a lot easier. I’m like, yeah, it is, because they got it done, right? It worked.
[01:26:40] Remy: It’s like, I can hire you to come in and label a bunch of buckets and put them all in my closet, but if I leave all of my clothes crumpled up, piled on the floor, the buckets aren’t doing me any good.
[01:26:52] Jen: The buckets aren’t doing you any good. Like I tell people, look, I. I create your closet system. You take your laundry and dump it on the floor. Your family’s gonna have a mess to clean up. Like, that’s something you have.
[01:27:02] Remy: I can’t just write on the back of a napkin moments before I croak. My buddy Dave gets all my stuff, and then I kick it. He doesn’t actually. He doesn’t get anything.
[01:27:12] Jen: Well, it depends. There are some states that actually, I call them napkin wills, but the technical term is holographic will. Okay, don’t ask me how that. Like, I don’t know how that’s the term at all. But we fully. There are some states that will take a fully handwritten will as the last will and testament. And, like, that’s the. That’s the legal hoop to jump to be an effective legal document. Now, this is what. Yeah, this is one of my favorite favorite topics.
So. So, like, a will only talks about some of your assets. It doesn’t talk about everything.
Because some assets already know where to go because of deeds and beneficiary designations. But the assets that are stuck, that don’t know where they go, they’re just like, Remy died, and it’s in Remy’s name. And this. There’s no other document with this asset that says where it goes. That’s where a will comes in.
And to be a will to be, like, a legally enforceable will to mean anything to say, like, okay, yeah, this is where it’s supposed to go next. Then it has to jump particular legal hoops, right? So some states, it’s like, well, if you fully write it like, that’s Enough protection for us to believe that, like, you meant this. You meant it, right as your will.
I. I like. I like being in Minnesota a lot. Because our probate laws are, like, they’re. They try to get things as black and white as they can. They don’t like controversy. And that is my wheelhouse and feels very Midwestern. Yes. Oh, for sure.
Actually, interestingly. So California lets you do holographic wills? Apparently Michigan does, too, because Aretha Franklin died, and she kept writing, like, on her barka. She just kept, like, handwriting wills. And there was this big fight because everyone’s like, well, which was the last one? And then the sun was like. But she told me, so there must be one missing. And it was just, like, a mess. And I was like, we don’t play that game. Do you have two witnesses or not? If you don’t have two witnesses, no go. Like, I don’t care if you notarized it. I don’t care. Like, I get. I love. Like, I get people who are like, you know, either mom, or like, they come in and they’re like, hi, Jen, I’d like to talk to you about estate planning, but I had this document notarized. I’m like, that’s adorable. That means nothing.
Our state does not care. And I’m glad.
[01:29:25] Remy: Yeah.
[01:29:27] Jen: So, yeah, no, it’s. It’s interesting.
[01:29:30] Remy: What.
What are the most important steps that I need to take to protect my family in the event of my own untimely death?
[01:29:39] Jen: Yeah. Okay. So, number one, take estate planning seriously. I think a lot of people don’t.
A lot of people. Their criteria for, you know, I see it all the time. I have a lot of.
As far as estate planning goes, I have a lot of competitors. As far as probate goes, I have a lot of feeders.
And what I mean by that is there’s. There’s lots of options that talk about. And they’re getting more and more all the time where it’s like, you look, you can get a will without an attorney. You can get, you know, you can get documents without an attorney. This is great. This is amazing. This is like. This is like getting.
This is opening the field up to people. Okay. Yeah, but, like, low cost shouldn’t be your criteria on this. Getting it right should be the criteria. And I also see people spend a lot of money and still not get the result they need to. Like, this isn’t about. This isn’t about, like, getting a document and thinking you have peace of mind. This is about, like, actually getting a result for Your family, where you’re pulling the bureaucratic crap off the table. So, number one, take it seriously.
It can be an investment. And it’s something that I can get a little bit astonished when people are like, well, but you don’t do a wool for $30. No, I don’t.
But then I’m like, but how much do you spend on a weekend at the Dells? How much do you spend on beer money? I’m German Lutheran. So that’s part of the budget, Right? Like. Like what? Okay, did you buy. Did you go buy. Did you go to John Deere and buy a gator? Those are fun, right? How much did you spend on that? You know, and so it’s like, what? You know, like, take it seriously and then get educated. Because, like, I. I hate our industry. I hate the industry. I hate it. It’s massively disturbing to people because most people are like, okay, well, I can Google. And then I’m being offered free wills, $30 wills, you know, like, avoid an attorney. Do it on your couch. Da, da, da. You’re offered all of these options with no real way to understand. Okay, like, I just don’t want to get that. I want to get something that works. How do I know how to do that?
You know, or, you know, you say, okay, yeah, I understand. This is going to be an investment. So I’m going to call to attorneys. And most people have never dealt with attorneys before, and that’s intimidating. And it’s a little bit like. It’s a little bit like, you know, you’re off to see the wizard, you know, and you don’t know if he’s just like some. Some doofus. Right. And you have no way to gauge that.
[01:32:16] Remy: Yeah.
[01:32:17] Jen: Right. And so you just kind of cross your fingers and hope. And that’s what I hate is, like, that’s where we’re at, is crossing your fingers and hope. And so that’s why. That’s why there needs to be a Dave Ramsey of death. That’s why, you know, people. Yeah. Need to have just a little bit of knowledge to say, like, okay, I understand.
Like, how to get an effective estate plan, how to vet an attorney so I’m not paying a doofus for nothing.
And then what I do after the signing to make sure my plan actually plays out. So I’m ta. I’m actually taking this thing off the table for people.
[01:32:50] Remy: Where, Jen, where can I learn all of this stuff? Tell me.
[01:32:57] Jen: Yes. Okay, so I have a. I have a website organized afterlife, and I do online courses that’s like, that was the thing where. Because I was like, I should write a book, but a lot of people write a book and people. But that’s not changing this industry at all.
And what I also found, because I’m only actively licensed in Minnesota, but I took the bar in Florida, which is diametrically opposed, like, very opposite ways of viewing how things should work, just because states do that.
And what I’ve seen is that. Is that kind of what the average person needs to know to be able to confidently take steps forward so that they know how they actually go get an estate plan, but then they know what they need to do, so it actually works and plays out that kind of base level of knowledge. Is it that that’s the same anywhere in the country? You know, what is a will do? What is my beneficiary designation? Do what. How do. How can I. How can I find a good attorney versus a doofus? You know, that kind of stuff.
That was. That’s all the same. And so I just. I put together. I have a couple of courses. One’s on. Here’s the steps you need to take so that you have a plan that works. And then for, like, adult kids that are dealing with aging parents or really any loved one, and they’re like, okay, I can’t do their plan, but I’m going to be dealing with their mess. What does that landscape look like? What are the legal issues? What is it like nursing home care and taxes and all that stuff? What is.
I just need to know what that’s like instead of Googling all these things. And what am I not, you know?
[01:34:36] Remy: Right.
[01:34:37] Jen: So, yeah, I have online courses which you can find on the website. There’s a little green tab in the corner that you can click to learn more about those courses.
[01:34:45] Remy: Excellent.
Very good. Jen, this was a great time.
[01:34:51] Jen: Yeah, it really was.
[01:34:52] Remy: I think we tried to do this, like, a long, long time ago, and it didn’t pan out.
[01:34:58] Jen: Yeah.
[01:34:59] Remy: But I’m really glad we got together. This was a ton of fun.
I learned a lot. I got a whole page of notes here, so that’s exciting. I have aging parents myself, and so I’m probably going to be checking out your stuff.
[01:35:17] Jen: That is the legal field guide to helping aging parents. Yep.
[01:35:20] Remy: Excellent. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time and your.
[01:35:26] Jen: Absolutely.
[01:35:29] Remy: Just your knowledge, your wisdom and your beautiful theological insight. And I’ll make sure to put links to everything organized afterlife.com and everything in the show. Notes for folks.
[01:35:44] Jen: All right, thanks so much.
[01:35:46] Remy: Yeah.
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