Welcome to Season 4, and Happy Reformation! We’re back for the next 22 weeks with fresh, tasty episodes.
To launch Season 4, I’m joined by my very dear friend, The Reverend Doctor Donald Merigold R. W. Francis Stein, M.Div., D.Min., Ed.D., DDR, Ph.D.
Make sure to follow @TheDonStein on X!
Shownotes:
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- The Hammer of God
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- Funeral Mass for Antonin Scalia
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Remy: This episode of Lutheran Answers is brought to you by our sponsor, Dial A Podcast. Dial A Podcast, proud sponsor of Lutheran Answers, provides a simple yet powerful solution to bring your church’s sermons and Bible studies closer to those who might be a step away from the digital world. Getting started with a local telephone number is easy, allowing anyone to listen to your content with just a phone call at their convenience. It’s an excellent way for congregations of all size to extend their reach. Get started with a 30 day risk free trial at dialapodcast.com and ensure no one misses out out on your church’s messages.
Hello and welcome to Lutheran answers. Season 4, Episode 1 We are back and we are joined today. Blessed to be joined by, and I hope I’m getting this right. His publicist wanted to make sure I would. The Rev. Dr. Donald Marigold. R.W. francis Stein, M. Div. DMin, EdD, DDR, PhD or as I call him, my friend. Don.
Don. How you doing, sir?
[00:01:07] Don: You know, with it, I guess I’m doing okay. I get an interview like that, with that kind of introduction, boy, I feel like a million bucks. Too bad. I’m gonna be the latest interview of the season. You know, you’re not starting out with a bang.
[00:01:23] Remy: No. Well, you don’t want to. You wanna, you know, you wanna set expectations low.
[00:01:29] Don: And that’s what I’m here for. I’m gonna set that bar about as low as it can possibly go so that the season only goes out. Your listeners are gonna be blessed and then.
[00:01:38] Remy: Yeah, exactly.
People, people will say hockey stick in quality, which is the goal.
[00:01:48] Don: Very good.
[00:01:49] Remy: Last time, last time you were on, we were supposed to talk about vicarage and we. I don’t think we ever actually even got around to it.
[00:01:55] Don: Wow.
[00:01:57] Remy: But that’s okay. You’re not a vicar anymore, are you?
[00:02:00] Don: No, it’s been about two and a half years since.
Since I’ve been ordained. So we’re talking like a full three something years ago that I was last on here. It can’t be that long.
[00:02:15] Remy: It might be.
[00:02:17] Don: Wow.
[00:02:18] Remy: Might be.
[00:02:19] Don: Man, we got old. My hair fell out. I’m bald now.
[00:02:23] Remy: Yeah, you look great though. It’s such a good look.
It’s a good look. I gotta get in better shape because I gotta do that, you know, I’m starting to get kind of thin.
[00:02:37] Don: It is a whole lot easier to maintain. You know, it was a really fun time when I decided, I’m done, the bald spot’s too big.
I saw a picture of what I looked like when I was presiding at the altar, I was like, who’s that guy? You know, what’s the cue ball from? And realized I needed to shave this down. I went to the bathroom, started shaving it, getting it all cleared off and wiped it all out. Looked good, came out, and the toddler was sitting right there. My three year old Penny, she’s four now.
[00:03:10] Remy: Instant tears.
[00:03:13] Don: Daddy, your head.
And I said, it’s good. It’s all clean. Do you want to see it? Do you want to touch it? And she says no. And she went running the other room and I could hear her talking to Emily and she’s saying, mommy, Daddy’s head’s all gone. And she’s right. My head has gone ever since. Yeah.
[00:03:39] Remy: It reminds me of the videos you see of people who have like their toddlers and they shave their beard for the first time and then like their toddler immediately starts CR this stranger in my home.
[00:03:49] Don: See, this is why we Lutherans grow beards. Because without it there’s, there’s just nothing left. There’d be, there’d be no point.
[00:03:55] Remy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
What T. Take me through. Take me through the process of coming to terms with shaving your head. Honestly. Cuz it’s something that I want to avoid, but also I know is unavoidable.
[00:04:13] Don: Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you’re familiar with the stages of grief, right?
Yeah, it’s very similar. Right. You’ve got your denial first. You know, I’m not going bald. It’s just a little spot. This will come back. Or it just looks that way. You know, the blonde hair. That’s why. Clearly.
And then eventually you get a little angry and you wish that you could maybe just shave it down a little and you shave a little bit, then you shave a little more and you know, and then you’re uneven on either side and you got to do something. I’m rambling now. This isn’t even making coherent sense.
And yeah, eventually comes acceptance and you shave it one day and you never look back and it’s good.
[00:05:00] Remy: Yeah, yeah. Feel the, the breeze, dude.
[00:05:05] Don: I feel like I have superpowers. I can feel like a 2 degree change in the temperature.
[00:05:13] Remy: That’s great.
That’s so good. That’s like, I’m usually a pants guy. I’m usually wearing blue jeans at work and you know, pants.
When I, like, wear shorts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When I have, when I have to wear shorts, like if I’m. If I’m gonna be outside for a day, I’ll wear shorts, you know, in the Summer, whatever. And it’s always shocking, you know, like when I feel like all day long I’m like, is there something on my leg? But it’s the opposite. There’s nothing on my leg, you know?
[00:05:47] Don: Yeah.
[00:05:48] Remy: I imagine it’s like that.
[00:05:50] Don: I’m a short shorts guy myself.
God’s gifted me, of course, glorious pearly whites called my thighs. And, you know, that’s what I get to walk around.
[00:06:01] Remy: Yeah.
[00:06:02] Don: Yeah.
[00:06:03] Remy: It would be a shame to hide them.
[00:06:06] Don: Absolutely.
[00:06:09] Remy: Don, how you said two and a half years since you’ve been ordained.
[00:06:13] Don: Yeah, it’s been that long. That’s wild.
That’s just.
[00:06:17] Remy: How’s two and a half years of ministry treated you?
[00:06:21] Don: It is more glorious than anything you could imagine. I love it.
The people here are something else.
They have a real heart for our community. They want to actually do things.
They don’t want to just come to church on Sunday and say goodbye for six days. They want to be together, be a family. And I credit them with building that over the years. It’s not something that you can just make happen overnight, and it’s certainly not something that you can program into reality. It’s a culture, and it’s been built for many years, and I’ve got my predecessors to thank for that.
We sometimes don’t realize that ministry is more than just a person. And ministry is a whole lot more than just one time period with a person. It’s God’s people in a place over a long period of time. And like, when you read, like, Bo Geertz is the hammer of God, and you see how all these different pastors over the years build this congregation into what it is, you start to gain an appreciation for it. And then when you see it in real life, that’s when you really realize just what a small part a single pastor plays in the overall ministry of a church, let alone Christ’s whole church. And it’s a humbling experience and a freeing one, too, because I’m not perfect.
And that’s a good thing, because God’s people get a chance to step up, make things happen as they should.
Praise him for that. That he uses even imperfect idiots like me with bald heads and red glasses to. To be useful to his people.
Yeah, ministry is great. Plus, I get to, like, baptize babies.
[00:08:21] Remy: That’s just all the time.
It’s.
It’s definitely.
See, it’s so great.
I. It’s one of my. It’s one of my favorite things, partly because it’s, like, the cutest thing to see. In the world. But it’s so great to watch like the church grow in that way. Especially because, like, the kind of church I grew up in, watching the church grow was something completely different. It was invite your friends to the pizza party weekend or, you know, it was, it was stuff. It was. We need to put video games programming in. Like, let’s build a cool loft area with a cafe and video games, you know?
[00:09:15] Don: Yeah. We don’t have a need for that word, the sacrament.
Those things build and the people come together on their own.
[00:09:28] Remy: I almost think those things are more damaging than they are helpful. Right. Because you’re, when you’re not founding people’s faith on the word of God, it’s, it’s. We’re doing like a bait and switch. I don’t really know how to. We’re building their foundation on movie references and pizza and lock ins and, you know, video games and whatever, you know, cool song and dance that we do to get people in the door. But we’re telling them that we’re building their faith on Jesus, but we’re not. We’re building their faith on secular consumerism and, and sort of the things that the world finds attractive. And so then that faith, because it’s not actually built on Jesus, fails them. And. But when it does, they blame Jesus.
[00:10:26] Don: Right?
[00:10:27] Remy: You know?
[00:10:28] Don: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I agree. This is why I like an honest outpouring of Christian love, like bubbling over into potlucks and fellowship time and all that good stuff. Yeah, that’s still the church. That’s the church being the church. It’s not a bunch of people trying to like evangelize a church into being just from a social club, you know?
Yeah, I’m not being articulate.
[00:11:00] Remy: Yeah.
[00:11:02] Don: But yeah, I absolutely agree. I don’t think you can program a church into existence.
[00:11:09] Remy: No, no, you can’t. The, the seeker sensitive thing, I think is, is very much a lie.
When you inherit a church like yours with like a really great culture, is it difficult to continue, like fostering or growing that? Or is it like, is it worrisome? Are you like, worried about.
[00:11:37] Don: I think every pastor deals with imposter syndrome because. Right. Seminary prepares you as well as you can possibly be prepared. But ultimately you’re getting, you know, your entry level competency. That’s exactly what a seminary degree is. You’re not, you’re not an expert by any means. You’re certainly not like a tried and true exegete or preacher. You’re learning as you’re going and God be praised for the, forgiving people that he puts in the pews.
Like, I. My midweek sermon this week was absolute trash. It didn’t come out the way I had prepared it all week. But Lou there in the third pew on the left side, in his beautiful, forgiving nature, says, pastor, thank you.
Good sermon. I know it wasn’t, but he kindly says it is. And so it gives me a chance to grow, too, and a chance to be able to come and serve them and meet them where they’re needed. So to get to your question.
Yeah. To inherit something like this, it’s a blessing. I don’t think any pastor could ask for a better kind of place to land, to grow into the ministry. Yeah.
[00:12:58] Remy: Yeah. It’s certainly.
I feel like there. You have a strong history of pastors that.
That put in the work and got this church to this.
This sort of, like, loving, relational community, you know, kind of place. This sort of Christian community sort of place. You.
You have other pastors that their. Their predecessors did the opposite. Right. That, you know, you’ve heard horror stories, you know, where it’s like, they fostered instead of, like, loving community.
It was all politics and backbiting and, you know, distrust. And you have some guys that land in those situations, and it’s, you know, it’s no wonder that they burn out of it, you know?
[00:13:55] Don: Yeah. And every church has its horror stories, right? I mean, we use the good cliche. The church is not a place for saints. It’s really a morgue for the dead. And we’re only made saints by the grace of God.
And so sin is everywhere. And, yeah, there’s bad things that happen throughout history. And I don’t think it’s necessarily because every pastor, I don’t know, I have a hard time blaming a people or a pastor. There are some churches that, yeah, they’re bad, and they chew people out and spit them out the other end. And there are pastors who are just not a good fit for a certain congregation. But if God calls a man to that ministry, then he’s there for a reason. Sometimes maybe it even is to punish that congregation with his presence. Who knows? God gives us exactly what He. He, in his wisdom, knows we need.
[00:15:00] Remy: It certainly, certainly makes you consider how much you.
Excuse me. How much you actually believe in, like, the divine call. You know what I mean? Like, you hit a. You hit a tough spot. You had a tough spot in the ministry, and it’s one of those, like, rubber meets the road. Like, you know, you gotta, like, you believe it or you don’t. You know, not that there are guys who don’t, but, I mean, maybe. I don’t know.
[00:15:32] Don: Yeah. I mean, it’s not just a job. You can’t just walk away on it when the going gets tough. You gotta preach the law when the law is needed. You get to preach the gospel even when it’s a.
A difficult time and, you know, people are craving it. That’s a blessing. But, yeah, it’s a divine thing. It’s not just a job, Remy. I’m sorry. My brain is like all kinds of fog all over the place. I hope. I don’t even know if any minute of this is usable yet.
[00:16:06] Remy: At this point in the interview, Don and I discussed rescheduling. We were both pretty tired. You can actually hear me yawning back in the beginning if you listen close. But ultimately we decided to press on and Don had such a wonderful idea. I’ve cut that little bit out for time, but we’re going to pick back up with Don’s brilliant idea and what led to a wonderful podcast episode.
[00:16:32] Don: Well, what if we just have some fun? Do you have topics that your future guests are going to be talking about?
Because then I can, like, get my word in just for fun. Fun.
[00:16:47] Remy: I do have two specific questions before we do that, because that’s actually a great idea. I do have two specific questions that I wanted to ask you.
And it’s kind of one question. It’s like a two parter.
What was.
What was an idea about pastoral ministry that you had coming out of seminary that was immediately shattered where immediately you were like, oh, that was way off. And then what’s another thing, another. The opposite way where you were like, that’s exactly what I hoped it would be.
[00:17:29] Don: Man.
I don’t know if there was anything that was completely shattered.
Not to, like, to tout my institution, but like the professors and the program and the whole curricula at St. Louis is really well formed and tried and true. I mean, the institution’s been around for over 150 years. It knows what it’s doing.
I don’t think there was anything that was shattered. I think the biggest thing that I personally realized after being in the parish, that my professors probably did try to teach us and I just, you know, didn’t make the connection, was just the limited amount of time that I have to actually do my sermon prep. Like, if I want to do all the other parts of ministry that I am invested in and wanting to do, I have to carve out that time for sermon planning and prep. Otherwise it’s just not going to happen. And that’s something that even on vicarage I didn’t quite understand because on vicarage I was preaching every other week. I had two weeks to prepare a sermon. I had some nice, nice sermons on vicarage. But yeah, I don’t think there was anything that completely like shattered my understanding of ministry.
If I had to say something, it would just be that you don’t have that much time to do your sermon prep. And so for me now, sermon prep has kind of turned into this thing where I do my initial textual study on Mondays, look at a couple of commentaries that I think might fit, decide whether I like it or not, and kind of sculpt out a basic outline of that week. And then as I go and do my shut in visits or as I work on other things throughout the week, because I’ve got confirmation to plot out. I’ve got men’s Bible study, women’s Bible study, I’ve got adult Bible study prior to service, all those things to work out elders Bible study, that to actually sit down and write the sermon. There’s not really time. So I’m listening to people as I’m in those studies, as I’m going house to house, and as I try little bits and pieces to see how they land and fit, I’m kind of composing the sermon in my head. And then on Thursday, because we’ve got a midweek service Thursday afternoon, I sit at the computer and actually type up an actual manuscript. Sometimes I even use it. That’s, that’s.
Yeah, it’s. It’s funny.
[00:20:24] Remy: Have you winged any yet?
[00:20:26] Don: I can’t, no. No, I have never winged a sermon and God willing, I never will have to.
But I don’t think my people realize just how much of the sermon writing process they are responsible for. And you know, they always, there’s always somebody who says, you know, pastor that spoke right to me, or pastor that, that really helped me with my situation. And in, in my head I’m thinking that’s because you’re inspiring it. Thank you. But.
[00:20:56] Remy: Right. I wrote that for you.
[00:20:58] Don: I’m glad it’s hitting, but you know, thank you. Worked hard. Yeah.
Yeah. So if there’s one thing, there’s, there’s just not hours.
Yeah. If there’s something that’s better than I even imagined. In seminary baptisms, man, nothing beats a baptism.
Those are great. My first year here, we had an entire family that was being baptized. They came over from one of the E Free churches in the area. And that was a What? One of the evangelical free churches.
[00:21:43] Remy: Oh, okay.
[00:21:46] Don: They went through the. The parents went through my adult instruction, and the kids, you know, joined up for Sunday school and confirmation, and they all were baptized at one service. Five baptisms at once. It was cool.
[00:22:01] Remy: That’s awesome.
[00:22:02] Don: Yeah.
[00:22:05] Remy: At once, too. You just dunk them all in one go.
[00:22:09] Don: I should say. One after another.
[00:22:13] Remy: Oh, oh, oh, yeah, that makes. That makes a lot more sense.
[00:22:17] Don: I only have two hands. Yeah.
[00:22:22] Remy: I guess you could do two at a time.
[00:22:24] Don: Yeah. This was also funny. So I have a practice that when I’m baptizing an infant, after they’ve been baptized, I take them up to the altar. And as other people have described it, I do the Lion King thing where I lift the infant up because, you know, St. Paul says we are living sacrifices to God. And so I bring the child up and I pray that God would continue to send his Holy Spirit to work in their heart to make true the promises that have been given in baptism and that this little one’s life would be a blessed sacri. Living sacrifice to God. And then I bring them back down and I hand the child to the father so that he can then do his duty for the household and continue to train him up in the way he should go so that when he’s old, he will not depart from it.
It’s a good time. All of this to say, when I baptize this family, there were no infants involved. And so when we were walking through, you know, the process of what we’re going to do, how the baptism itself works, some of the older kids asked.
You’re not going to try to lift us up at the altar, are you?
[00:23:35] Remy: Yes.
[00:23:36] Don: No, I will not.
Yeah, it was fun.
[00:23:43] Remy: All right, so I am getting together questions. So I am going to ask you a couple of questions from upcoming episodes.
I am going to. Also, I have a whole treasure trove of theological questions that people email me.
[00:24:11] Don: A treasure trove.
[00:24:13] Remy: A treasure trove. Well, it’s a trove.
[00:24:17] Don: Okay.
[00:24:18] Remy: It’s a. It’s a doozy. Trove. Let me tell you, I’ve got a whole. I got a whole load of theological doozies for you.
[00:24:26] Don: Sounds good.
[00:24:27] Remy: So we’ll. We’ll put you to the test here.
Hang on while I jot just a couple of notes.
[00:24:40] Don: Okay?
Are you excited for the packers game tonight?
[00:24:58] Remy: Remy, you know me. I am such a big baseball fan. I cannot wait. Are they playing the Chicago Bulls? You’ve been paying attention for the Stanley Cup.
[00:25:13] Don: You know, methinks the lady doth protest Too much. I think deep in your heart, you are such an avid sports fan that you probably right after church, you can’t wait to get out the door. And if I were to ask Joe, I’m sure that he would probably tell me the truth.
[00:25:32] Remy: How much you want to bet on it?
[00:25:34] Don: Nothing. I’m not a betting man. Sinners?
[00:25:42] Remy: Yeah. No, I. I’m not a sports guy, but we do have a local baseball team, and my friend’s mom is, like, super into baseball. And so me and him and his parents and my wife and we’re always going to, like I say, always going to the games. We’ve been to like, three, just like. But I find it really interesting, huh?
[00:26:02] Don: Just like a Savannah Bananas team.
Have you heard of this event?
[00:26:06] Remy: Some.
No.
[00:26:09] Don: They’re kind of like the Harlem Globetrotters of baseball. They do these most.
[00:26:13] Remy: Oh, no.
[00:26:14] Don: Things.
[00:26:15] Remy: No, it’s a minor league. It’s a minor league team off the Astros.
They’re. They’re actually pretty good.
[00:26:25] Don: Do they cheat just like the Astros do?
[00:26:30] Remy: I don’t know. But every time we’ve gone, I’ve gotten free tacos from the little Mexican joint down the street because we got six runs.
[00:26:36] Don: Nice.
[00:26:38] Remy: So that’s really all I care. I’m in it for the tacos. All right, so let me ask you. Talking about death.
[00:26:47] Don: Oh, my favorite topic. Great.
[00:26:50] Remy: Uh huh huh.
[00:26:57] Don: Memento mori. Remember it? It’s coming. Yep.
[00:27:02] Remy: It’s. It’s. So how do you explain to people, how do you explain to, like, your congregants, the concept that you are a Christian now.
You are not living life for you, and you are not living life for the hell of it. You’re living life for other people.
How do you get that across?
[00:27:25] Don: This is great.
One of the places that I like to start with this is Philippians, chapter one, right? Because you got St. Paul, who is literally in chains, stuck in prison, not knowing what’s going to happen next. Is he going to live? Is he going to die?
And his congregation is worried about him, right? They’re worried sick. They’re sending people to prison to give him food. Because in those days, that’s the only way that you get cared for in prison.
And he’s sending back letters. And the letter that he sends back to the church in Philippi, he says, for me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. And he keeps talking about how, you know, it’d be really nice to just die and not have to worry about this, and wouldn’t that be great? You just get to Be blessed and rest in Jesus.
Every day I wonder, Lord, will you take me now? This is good. I’ll sing the song of Simeon right here. If this means you will take me to be at rest with your son.
But Paul goes on then. And Paul goes on. And I want to get the exact wording here because I think it’s some of the most beautiful language in scripture when it reminds us of our purpose here.
So, let’s see. Philippians, chapter one.
And here he is. For me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yippee. More work yet which I shall choose, I cannot tell. I’m hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary. On your account.
Did you catch that?
The only reason, St. Paul, you people, you need me.
And it’s the truth. It’s the truth. We’re not here for ourselves anymore. We’ve given up everything. I must decrease that he may increase. My life is forfeit. I am not my own. In fact, I have been bought at a price. You are not your own.
And that’s the same for all of us. Jesus Christ has spilled his blood, purchased and won me from sin and death. Not with gold or silver, but with his precious death and burial and resurrection. All those things.
And to me, that’s just the most beautiful thing ever. You’re of such value that the whole world needs you. Like trying to explain that to somebody, it doesn’t take much convincing. And once they realize, oh, yeah, I matter to other people.
Yeah, I don’t. What’s death? That’s nothing. Nothing at all. And in fact, then we get to die every single day. Dying to our sin, rising with Christ.
Nothing better.
So, like, what was the question? How do you explain that to people? Man, you just live it. You just preach it. They’ll catch on.
[00:30:42] Remy: Excellent.
What are the.
[00:30:47] Don: See, this was.
[00:30:48] Remy: What are the ministry needs?
[00:30:51] Don: Go ahead. Ministry needs. Where?
[00:30:53] Remy: What are the ministry needs of ministers? What are the pastoral needs of pastors?
[00:31:02] Don: The same as everybody else.
The same as everybody else.
We need pastors. And I’m grateful that we do have pastors to pastors, both in the formal institutional sense and in the informal, loving sense. And here’s what I mean by that. Like, we’ve got a wonderful setup in the lcms where we have circuit visitors and brother pastors in our circuit. And we’ve even got this wonderful district. And I’m blessed to probably have the best district president in the entire lcms. And it’d be good if nobody caught that. You can edit that out, because I don’t want him getting elected to any higher office. He has to stay here.
And it’s good to have these pastors who care about one another, who, you know, in the middle of the day, text each other, hey, brother, love, you know, you’re going through a tough time praying for you, and it’s wonderful to be able to repay that, to share that with others, too.
And then in the informal sense, and I have to be explicitly clear here, I’m talking informally, small p Pastor, those who care for others.
The church is filled with people who love one another, and I am blessed to have the best pastor of them all in that small p. Pastoral sense in my wife. She lives in my house.
She’s forgiven me more times than any pastor ever has.
So God be praised that he provides pastors to pastors, both literally and figuratively.
So ministry needs. We need pastors, people who care, people who love.
And every now and then, some time off.
[00:33:05] Remy: Yeah, yeah.
And I also heard you say that you support your wife, who is a female pastor, and that the LCMS should ordain women.
[00:33:20] Don: Is that exactly.
[00:33:21] Remy: I picked that up.
[00:33:22] Don: Yeah.
[00:33:23] Remy: I think it’s a direct quote.
It’s not going to stop me from taking that clip out of context and tweeting it a bunch.
[00:33:31] Don: I’m sure it will. I’m looking forward to my Twitter mentions blowing up. You know, the cool thing about Twitter is this. It’s got this real cool feature called the block button, and then I don’t see it.
[00:33:43] Remy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, actually on the Lutheran Answers account, and I’m very proud of this. I don’t block anyone. I now my block list is long. I do have a very long block list, but I don’t block any actual people. I block bots when they pop up in my mentions. I really don’t have a bot problem. Everybody has this bot problem. I don’t.
The bots have died.
[00:34:08] Don: That’s good. The last couple of months, the bots have been nice.
[00:34:13] Remy: So I have a ton of blocked bots, and then anytime I see an ad, I block that account running the ad.
[00:34:23] Don: You know, the big ads that I’ve had lately have been the Mormon ones.
[00:34:27] Remy: I don’t know the Mormon ads.
[00:34:29] Don: Those are the worst and most obnoxious things ever.
And I don’t know that there’s a meaner group on Twitter than the Mormons. Like all The Mormons I’ve met in real life that I’m like friends with, they’re like the nicest, sweetest people. But, but the people online, I don’t, I don’t know if they’re even the same breed. That’s, that’s something else.
[00:34:51] Remy: The Mormons you’ve met in real life are not the nicest, sweetest people, though. They are, they are not at all. It’s all a front man. Because Mormonism is such a works based religion, it is such a works focused religion that everybody you have to do, you have to be successful. Like, this is one of the things that they don’t tell you when you’re investigating the Mormon Church that you find out later. But one of the ways that you reach this sort of deification in Mormonism and, and draw close to Heavenly Father is through worldly success.
That is one of the ways that you, you, you climb their ladder of salvation is what they call it, is through worldly success. And so a lot of Mormons are in crippling debt. A lot of them are very nice outwardly.
[00:35:44] Don: Debt held by other Mormons too. And in Mormon institutions, that debt is specifically held by other Mormons in Mormon institutions, so that it’s almost impossible to get out too. I mean, they’ll own your house and if you ever leave their church, then you’re up your, you’re up the creepiest creek without a paddle.
[00:36:07] Remy: I know, I know missionaries, I know missionaries that have deconverted on their mission and the church just left them there. It’s one of the reasons why they want you to be 18 before you go on your mission. Because if you deconvert, they’ll just leave you wherever you are and they’ll say, well, you’re an adult, figure it out, get home.
[00:36:25] Don: And the other big part about those, those missions. Mormons don’t do missions with the expectation that they’re actually converting people. Not at all. It is a consolidation to make sure that they have completely indoctrinated and fused up and taken out any possibility of this person leaving the cult.
Yeah, absolutely. Wicked.
[00:36:49] Remy: Yeah. People, people have to hire attorneys to get off the rolls of the church. Yeah, like, that’s crazy.
[00:36:58] Don: Have you checked to see if somebody has vicariously baptized you yet?
[00:37:03] Remy: No. Can you do that?
[00:37:05] Don: I, I’m pretty sure you can, actually. Let’s, let’s see.
Am I Mormon baptized?
I don’t know if you can look it up online. I don’t know if you ever could.
I know they keep those, those rolls though.
Oh, well, if you ever find out, let me know.
[00:37:37] Remy: Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:43] Don: They. They tried to posthumously vicariously baptize Martin Luther, among others. They tried Helen Keller, too, and Anne Frank and all kinds of others just like, why would you do that? How rude.
[00:37:59] Remy: You know, maybe this is a fruitless search because I don’t think you can be vicariously baptized if you’re still alive. I think now that we’re talking about it, I think you do have to be dead, so. But it’s. It’s good to know I won’t be resigned to outer darkness. Anyway, that’s what they call hell.
Yeah. Wicked, wicked people. I’m gonna clip this up and tweet it, too. That’ll be fun.
Is witchcraft real?
[00:38:33] Don: Why do you want to know?
[00:38:39] Remy: It’s an upcoming podcast topic.
[00:38:41] Don: Yeah.
Yeah. I did an independent study in seminary with our good buddy, rural Lutheran, Ian Hines on the demonic. Oh, we should do a. No, we shouldn’t. We shouldn’t.
[00:38:59] Remy: How do you do. I was gonna say interruption. New question.
[00:39:03] Don: Thank you.
[00:39:05] Remy: How do you do an independent study with someone else?
[00:39:10] Don: You got to get it approved. What we wanted to do was get a class together, and we had several guys, but it wasn’t quite enough to get the registrar to do something, and then that would require putting together a full syllabus and getting it approved through all those things. So we just decided to do it as an independent thing. And so everybody else dropped off and it was just Ian and I. But it ended up being great because we got to have, you know, Talk time with Dr. Ulawski, who might be the expert in all of the Protestant world on the Desert Fathers. He’s even translated several of them and got to read a whole lot of pseudo macarius and all kinds of other guys.
Oh, yeah, it was a good time. But one of the things that we realized as we were seeing how the Desert Fathers interacted with the demonic was just how very similar they are to the Lutheran Fathers, and especially when they describe the personal interactions of the Christian with evil spirits.
You could take some Luther things side by side with pseudomacarius, and you’d be hard pressed to discern which one was which. They could have been interchangeable.
[00:40:30] Remy: Wow.
[00:40:32] Don: All of this stemming from your original question, Is witchcraft real?
Yeah, I mean, of course. But it doesn’t look like what people imagine. It’s not Hollywood theatrics. It’s stupidity and knowledge that people shouldn’t have.
And it leads to very dark places and very lonely places and fear.
The good thing is Christians don’t Have to be afraid, though. Where the Holy Spirit resides, there’s not room for another.
So. God be praised.
[00:41:07] Remy: Have you seen that movie, the Pope’s Exorcist, with Russell Crowe?
[00:41:14] Don: You’re asking me if I saw a movie?
[00:41:17] Remy: Oh, you’re not a movie guy.
[00:41:19] Don: I am. Sorry. I mean, like, I have my series that I watch with Emily, and then I have the series that she watches that I’m not allowed to watch or be in the room for because I asked too many questions.
[00:41:29] Remy: Excellent.
[00:41:30] Don: Yeah, I don’t. I don’t watch too many.
I have my. My Christ in Film series that I do. So there’s like 12 movies a year that I do watch.
[00:41:41] Remy: Wow. In the Pope’s Exorcist, there’s this really great scene at the beginning where the main priest guy, Russell Crowe, is investigating a case to determine whether or not it’s actually demonic possession or if it’s mental illness or whatever. And it’s this little boy, and they’ve got him, like, strapped down to the bed or whatever because he’s like, you know, harming others, harming yourself, whatever. And so Russell Crowe comes in. He’s this. He’s this old Italian priest, and he sets his chair next to the boy at the bed, and he sits down in it, and he just looks. And the boy’s looking at him. And, you know, it’s. He’s got this demonic sort of visage on his face, and he has these. He’s sort of like. I don’t know, like, purring is maybe the right word. It’s these sort of guttural throat noises he’s making, looking at Russell Crowe, who is just sitting there, just comfortably sitting there. And finally the boy goes, I know your sins, priest.
And Russell Crowe goes, oh, really?
Name one.
And then just leans forward in his chair.
And the boy sits there and looks at him for a while longer and kind of growls. And Russell Crowe goes, oh, you can’t name one, can you? Because they’ve all been absolved by the Lamb of God.
[00:43:06] Don: Yes.
That’s awesome.
That’s the way it should be. Are you not entertained? Yeah. That’s great.
[00:43:17] Remy: It was awesome. It’s probably one of the best scenes, I think, in one of those kinds of movies I’ve ever seen.
[00:43:24] Don: Good.
Yeah.
[00:43:27] Remy: How do we deal with things like hauntings?
[00:43:31] Don: What do you mean?
[00:43:34] Remy: Say someone comes to you and they’re like, pastor, I think my house is haunted. What do you do?
[00:43:38] Don: Why do you think your house is haunted, Janet?
[00:43:43] Remy: Lights turn on in the middle of the night.
I got pulled out of my bed the other night. I was asleep, and something grabbed me by the arm and yanked me out of the bed. And I live alone. I don’t think it was my cat that did it.
[00:43:56] Don: Have you checked your cat for steroid use?
[00:44:01] Remy: Yes.
[00:44:02] Don: This is why I don’t have a house. I mean, they’re. They’re pretty much portals.
[00:44:09] Remy: I tell you what, my cats are just portals to vomit.
[00:44:15] Don: That’s right.
[00:44:16] Remy: So a lot of hairballs and pea soup.
[00:44:28] Don: I am.
I’m not gonna go there. Never mind.
Cats are a creature.
God made that.
[00:44:37] Remy: God made.
[00:44:38] Don: Yep, yep.
Maybe it was after the fall, but he did make the.
[00:44:45] Remy: Maybe they were just different pre fall.
[00:44:50] Don: Yes, undoubtedly. Yeah. Okay, so somebody’s really dealing with this kind of stuff. And not to make light of it, it’s really scaring them. Right.
Whether it’s real or whether it’s in their mind, either way, you have a God who offers them comfort.
So you go and do what your God gives in order to provide comfort. You read his word, you pray.
That’s what the church has done for two millennia.
God’s word and prayer.
That’s it. So you go, you bless the house, you bless them, you remind them they’re forgiven, and that’s that.
[00:45:38] Remy: Especially because.
Go ahead.
[00:45:43] Don: If it persists, then you do it again and you keep praying and you know, that’s it.
God is bigger than the boogeyman, as Veggietales profoundly told us.
[00:45:57] Remy: Amen.
[00:45:58] Don: Yeah.
[00:45:59] Remy: Well, and it’s. I think it’s important, too, to remember that, especially with things like this, the devil’s ultimate goal or a demon or whatever. Their ultimate goal isn’t to scare you. It isn’t to frighten you.
Their ultimate goal is to get you to not believe that Jesus did the thing for you that Jesus says he did for you. Right. That’s the ultimate goal, is to destroy your faith. Christ’s atonement in Christ’s work in the gospel.
[00:46:30] Don: That’s why you go for the comfort of God’s Word. Yeah.
[00:46:34] Remy: Yep.
Amen.
Amen. Very good. Okay. I am going to now hit you with questions that people have emailed me.
I’m gonna hit you right in the face.
As a pastor.
Oh.
Oh, this is actually a good one. As a pastor, how do you deal with the idea that Gentile and Jewish Christians have separate promises and that only books of the New Testament are to apply to Gentiles, but that the rest of the Bible applies to Jews?
I’m sorry? That the only books of the New Testament that apply to Gentiles are Paul’s letters, but the rest of the Bible applies to Jews.
[00:47:32] Don: Okay, so this person has probably come from a dispensational background of some sort or another, right? Yes, you can tell that by the question, because we can’t accept that question as its phrase. There’s a couple misunderstandings there, so let’s address those first.
First of all, all scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. Sorry, that’s the niv, not the ESV version, but that’s the one that’s in my head from eighth grade.
We know that. So we’re not Martianites. We’re not chopping out the Old Testament and saying, yeah, this only applies to ancient Israel, not to us. No.
Now, I will nuance that by saying, yeah, there’s parts of the, you know, Levitical law or the ceremonial law that do not apply to Christians today. We’re still bound by the moral law which God has laid down, because God’s law is the law of the universe. This is his desire and his will for creation. That’s what the law is. It’s the way that he made it to work. To break God’s law is to sin for us. And it would be just as ridiculous if the sun decided, yeah, I’m gonna stop rotating and start doing loops. I don’t even know how that would work, like, physically or atomically.
[00:49:01] Remy: That would be terrifying.
[00:49:02] Don: Yeah, it would. Or like, if the sun decided, I’m not gonna shine anymore, screw fusion. I’m gonna do fission. Boom, here’s the fireworks. I don’t know.
Sin is that strange and wrong. That’s why God’s law is always good and it doesn’t change.
So wiping away this whole, forget the Old Testament thing, it all applies to us, every piece of it.
The other thing in that question that we need to apply then is, is there a different covenant for us today than there is for Israelites in the past?
And for that, no, we can go read the book of Hebrews and see that there have been Christians since Adam, all who have believed in the promise which was to come that was made in Genesis 3:15. That beautiful proto evangelium has continued all the way till now. All believers.
Abraham was accounted righteous because of faith in the promise, not because of his works, not because he was under some different covenant. It is the covenant that God has always had and which is fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ right there. We can’t take that question as it is. So we would gently explain that, you know, we are. We still believe in all of the scriptures. We still are one with that promise grafted into that one promise.
And so the question doesn’t really make sense anymore and hopefully we throw it away and stop looking at dispensational sites online.
[00:50:55] Remy: So still in the dispensational vein, there is. So there’s not.
There’s not this. All the Christians are going to be raptured and there’s going to be a tribulation for the unbelievers. And then after that, all the Jews are going to be saved through the temple sacrifices again.
[00:51:25] Don: Was Jesus sacrifice not enough?
I don’t know.
[00:51:36] Remy: It’s so, you know, it’s funny because I grew up in this and growing up like it all made perfect sense, but like, now deep into Lutheran theology, biblical theology, hat tip it, it’s just. It doesn’t make sense, does it? Like, it really doesn’t make sense at all.
[00:51:57] Don: No, no.
I’m kind of at a loss. I would. I would have to sit and think for a while on how to even help someone to see that this is not the way it works.
Man, how do you explain to somebody that the scriptures are amillennialist?
Where do you even start?
[00:52:19] Remy: No, it’s a tough one.
[00:52:20] Don: That’s. That’s one that I really just haven’t had to deal with too much yet. Oh, man, Remy, you’re pointing out a blind spot for me. Well, I guess I got to go read some.
[00:52:29] Remy: I think you’re.
Please don’t. Please don’t. It’s terrible. I think your initial question is actually a pretty good starting point for any kind of discussion. If someone comes to you with something like this, which is, is Jesus not enough?
You know, when of course, they’re going to balk and they’re going to say, oh, well, of course Jesus is enough.
[00:52:51] Don: Great. Then if God’s grace is sufficient for you, as it was for St. Paul and for every other saint who has ever put their faith and trust in the promise that the Messiah would truly come, which goes all the way back to Adam, then let it be enough for you.
Why do we need to try to comprehend the incomprehensible mind of God and make sense of how the world’s going to end? God simply doesn’t reveal that to us. It’s not important. It’s not part of our salvation.
It’s not even revealed to anyone but the Father.
[00:53:38] Remy: I’ve got so many good questions, Don.
[00:53:44] Don: Man, I hope half of this stuff is usable for You.
[00:53:49] Remy: It’s. So far, it’s all usable. I cannot wait to put your. You went to St. Louis, Remy.
[00:53:59] Don: Don’t do that to me. Don’t do that to my institution. They don’t. They don’t need that.
[00:54:04] Remy: What?
It’s the best Concordia.
[00:54:08] Don: It is, but you’re gonna, like, trim it, and I’m gonna have, like, angry letters.
Ordain women.
[00:54:15] Remy: No, I. No, I was just. I was just trying to remember, because I was gonna say, we’re gonna put that St. Louis education through its paces here.
What is the main.
I’m going to put that St. Louis education through its. Through its paces here. And then, like, the answer to every question is just going to be like, well, we should ordain women.
[00:54:44] Don: We should not ordain women.
[00:54:48] Remy: No, no, we should not.
[00:54:50] Don: No, not.
[00:54:51] Remy: What’s the main difference between Lutheran. Lutheran theology, Lutheranism, I should say, and Roman Catholicism?
[00:54:59] Don: Whoa, there’s a question.
[00:55:03] Remy: Yeah, yeah, someone emailed that to me. That was the full question.
[00:55:07] Don: Read it again. I want to get the exact wording right.
[00:55:12] Remy: What is the main difference, the main difference between Roman Catholicism and Lutheranism?
[00:55:20] Don: Okay, then if it’s just the main difference and not main differences or anything like that, then we’re just going to do the quick and easy one. Justification by grace through faith in Christ alone. That’s it.
The Semi Pelagianism of Rome eventually leads to either works, righteousness or a crisis of the conscience, intense suffering. And this is why Roman Catholics make such great converts to Lutheranism, because they’re always rediscovering the gospel almost every single Sunday.
And one reason why I am so grateful to be Lutheran, because in the college days, I considered Roman Catholicism for a little bit.
Went through rcia, and, you know, I married a Catholic. So trying to decide how we’re gonna raise our kids. That was a question for a little bit. Our future kids, we decided before we had them. But, yeah, sure, sure, I can show you the baptismal certificates and all of the times, but when it comes to the main difference, it’s just got to be justification, the actual gospel. And, you know, there are Roman Catholics who are effectively Lutheran nowadays, and that’s a good thing. We don’t have to rely on the felicitous inconsistency or the happy accident for them to be saved.
Their practice and their enunciation of the gospel and their overall theology is drawing closer to us every day. And that’s a good thing.
Is it there? 100%. No. And maybe it won’t be this side of Eternity. But, you know, give it a couple more centuries of persecution, who knows? Maybe they’ll come around to us.
[00:57:20] Remy: Do you think. Do you think we’re drawing closer to Rome? Rome is drawing closer to us, or are we drawing closer to each other? Have we not moved at all?
[00:57:28] Don: No. I mean, you compare us to our Confessions. I don’t think there’s been any movement or departure from our beliefs in our practice. There are things to be desired in certain places around the globe. For instance, in America, we still have this aversion to every week, communion. Not at my congregation, but in others.
We struggle sometimes to. To live out our Lutheran Confessions.
But I don’t think we have departed from our Confessions at all. I do think that Rome is moving away from the errors of Vatican I and trying to backtrack, you know, papal infallibility to a more synodical use.
Conciliatory, maybe. And then I do think that they have moved significantly with regard to justification. And I know we all poop on the joint declaration, as we should. It’s an empty document that allows for a whole lot of wishy washiness.
But the fact that they were even willing to come to a table to try to make something even wishy washy is progress. And if you attend the average Catholic funeral, you’ll hear the gospel. Even if it’s clouded by the extra teachings, it’s still there, lurking beneath it all, offering that true comfort to those who need it.
One of the best examples of this is the funeral of Antonin Scalia.
Have you ever heard that funeral sermon by his son, a Catholic priest?
[00:59:35] Remy: No.
[00:59:36] Don: He gives the most beautiful Lutheran sermon.
There’s. He starts it off really great. He starts talking about how does this great rhetorical trick where he talks about how we’re here because of one man who was very controversial, sometimes despised by those in authority. It goes on and on. And, you know, all the people in the audience are giggling because they think that this is about his father or something, something. And he says, and that man, of course, is Jesus Christ.
And then he goes on, amazing. Give the comfort that only the gospel can give. And reading the media responses to that funeral sermon was fantastic, because they did not understand a Catholic funeral. They didn’t understand Christianity at all. They had no sense of the hope for eternal life that we Christians have. And so it was interesting to try to hear them make sense of it or try to.
But go ahead and give that one a listen sometime. So when it comes to the Catholic Church improving.
Yeah, I think Luther would even be pleased to see how far they’ve come in 500 years. And let’s pray that it continues.
[01:00:56] Remy: Amen.
This is so good. I’m writing down all your answers so that I can put them on my website.
[01:01:05] Don: Bad idea.
[01:01:07] Remy: You are secretly Lutheran answers.
[01:01:11] Don: Nice.
[01:01:14] Remy: So David asks during communion, when the pastor speaks the words of. Of institution, is the pastor speaking as an agent of Christ with the authority of Christ with which we are to believe, as it were, Christ himself?
Or is it more that the pastor becomes more than a pastor, and we should accept that the words are coming from the mouth of Christ himself?
[01:01:48] Don: I don’t understand the distinction.
[01:01:50] Remy: I guess that’s.
Well, I think. I think probably.
What’s that?
What’s that? What is that fancy word?
[01:02:04] Don: Is he just asking if the sacerdotalism in Persona Christie.
[01:02:11] Remy: Yeah, well, so I think the idea is. The idea of the question is sort of, what does in Persona Christi mean? Does it mean that the pastor is just doing what Christ has command and we should accept it as though it’s Christ himself? Or is the pastor somehow like a vessel for Jesus, which I know it still sounds like the same question.
[01:02:33] Don: No, I see the fine distinction that he’s trying to make, but I don’t think it’s either or.
[01:02:41] Remy: Okay.
[01:02:42] Don: If we’re functioning as vicars of Christ, then that’s what we are. We are vicariously there serving God’s people. I mean, this is why before the communion liturgy really begins, the first things out of the pastor’s mouth is, what.
[01:02:59] Remy: In the name of the Father and the Son?
[01:03:01] Don: Well, after the invocations, I’m talking the service of the.
[01:03:05] Remy: Oh, okay.
[01:03:06] Don: The first words the pastor says at the service of the sacrament are, the Lord be with you. And then how do the people respond?
And also with you and with thy spirit. And also with you. The whole point is that they are giving the assent that, yeah, this guy is the called and ordained servant who’s here standing in the place of Christ for us. We are approving what he is about to do in the congregation. We, the body of Christ, are submitting to Christ our head and letting this guy serve us in his stead and by his command.
So I don’t know if that answers the question, but I don’t know that we need to make that distinction. The pastor is fulfilling what Christ has commanded, and God’s word is God’s word. It does exactly what he says it does. Doesn’t return to him empty. And here’s what this word is doing. His word is making present the very body and Blood of Jesus Christ for you.
[01:04:13] Remy: I only laugh because I know it’s a huge debate online. And also with you versus and with thy spirit.
The more I read, the more I learn, the more I discuss with my fellow seminarians, the more I think and with thy spirit is correct.
But also, if this makes sense, like, the less concerned I am with it overall. Does that make sense?
Like, I’m not going to go in and demand my. My church change everything overnight because we’re. And also with you type of congregation. I’m not going to demand we change everything overnight, you know, but I do still loudly shout and with thy spirit.
[01:05:00] Don: Every church has people who do that. You know, it’s meant to mean the same thing, but. And with thy spirit is more theologically accurate with your spirit. If you want to modernize it. I wish we would have kept it consistent in our hymnal.
We cycle through all five services at St. Andrew. We change them with the church season so you really get a feel for where the church is at. Which is kind of cool because each service has its own feel. You know, Setting two is minor key. It’s a little more foreboding. Setting one, you know, is a little more happy and bright and ordinary time. Ish. And then you’ve got setting four, which is very scandinahuvian and sing songy and just works perfect for Christmas time and Advent.
And then, you know, tried and true setting three for all the major feasts, because that’s what we know.
And so all of this to say as we’re cycling through these different services, my people often forget which one they’re doing. And so at their turn to say, you know, and with thy spirit. It’s often this cacophony of and with also with thy spirit. You. You know, it’s fun.
[01:06:25] Remy: Yeah, I.
I also find that switch back and forth a little.
A little annoying. I also, I don’t know why, but I also don’t like the updated verbiage on some of the, like the creeds or like the Lord’s Prayer. There’s.
I couldn’t. I’m not an LCMS guy, so I couldn’t tell you, but I’ve. I’ve been through a couple of LCMS services where whatever setting had like some modern modernized kind of. I wasn’t a fan, but that’s just curmudgeoniness.
[01:07:06] Don: Yeah. Well, you’re welcome to come to our church. We’re pretty traditional, pretty good old fashioned.
[01:07:13] Remy: Nice.
What state are you in?
[01:07:17] Don: We are three miles south of the greatest state in the Union Wisconsin.
[01:07:23] Remy: Okay.
Okay. Weird to call it the greatest state, but yeah, you know, I guess I’m.
[01:07:32] Don: Close enough that I can still go north and get real cheese, good cheese and cheese curds and, you know, good new Glarus beer, which is only sold in Wisconsin. They don’t sell it in the heathen states like Illinois or. Where are you? North Carolina?
[01:07:47] Remy: Yeah, North Carolina. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s a Louisiana version of that called the Boot that they only sell down in Louisiana.
[01:07:58] Don: I might have had that. I might have had that when I went down.
[01:08:03] Remy: I think it’s good.
It’s just like a good drinking beer.
[01:08:08] Don: It is.
[01:08:09] Remy: All right.
John 20:23 if you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven them. If you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained.
Josh asks, what is this verse teaching? Is some type of confession to a priest necessary? Is private confession necessary for all sins or only specific, really bad ones like apostasy, adultery and murder?
[01:08:43] Don: With these words, Jesus is showing what the keys to the kingdom are capable of doing. Forgiving sin. This is something that he’s demonstrated throughout all of his ministry on earth, where, you know, I’m thinking of the lame man who he made walk. And the people are angry because he does this work on the Sabbath. How dare he do this? And Jesus responds, what’s more amazing to say to somebody, get up and walk, or that your sins are forgiven, but that you may believe. I’ll also raise the guy and let him stand.
Forgiving sins is something only God can do, and he gives that power to his church through the keys.
So this guy is asking, what’s this verse doing? It’s giving the church the ability to forgive sins. That’s incredible. It’s amazing.
We are able to forgive one another, to confess and be absolved, to bring our repentance and our sin directly to God.
Do we need to confess to a pastor or priest?
No.
That’s not what the pastor or priest is for. Not to be the not like a cruel gatekeeper and a master of forgiveness, only doling it out when he wants it.
Instead, he is to forgive the sins of the penitent and retain the sins of the impenitent. He gets to be the absolution man because he’s the one who has been called and ordained to do that on behalf of the church, not because he’s the only one who can forgive sins. All Christians can forgive sins.
When my 4 year old takes a piece of candy from the candy jar that she’s not supposed to take and my wife forgives her after she says, I’m sorry, Mom, I won’t eat it again.
Then that forgiveness that my wife gives is just as valid and certain as if Christ himself were saying it.
Whatever our vocation is as Christians, we have the ability to bring Christ there. That means we get to forgive sins.
So then what makes the pastoral office different when it forgives sins? Because this is the guy who’s been called and ordained to do it for the people.
So if you have a sin that is truly burdening your heart that’s really sticking with you, then go and talk to the pastor. See the guy who God has put in that place so that you can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God has forgiven your sins and that you are truly his own child.
Does that work?
[01:11:53] Remy: Amen.
[01:11:54] Don: All right, that works.
[01:11:56] Remy: That works.
[01:12:01] Don: This raspberry tart is really good.
[01:12:04] Remy: Is it?
[01:12:05] Don: Yeah.
[01:12:07] Remy: Hold it up to the camera so that I can.
[01:12:10] Don: It’s beautiful.
Crisp and red. I gotta read this to you because this will just make it sound even more delectable.
Treat yourself to a rare delight. The voluminous raspberry bouquet will greet you long before your lips touch your glass. Serve this Wisconsin framboise very cold in a champagne flute. Whoops. Then hold your glass to alight and enjoy the jewel like sparkle of a very special ale. Oregon proudly shares their harvest of mouth watering berries which we ferment spontaneously in large oak vats. Then we employ Wisconsin farmed wheat and year old Hellertau hops to round out this extravaganza of flavor. Life’s too short to to wait for dessert and joy.
That’s good.
That sounds good.
[01:13:19] Remy: Okay, common critique from more orthodox lately than before, but also from Rome, which. Which used to do this pretty frequently.
Are our holy orders valid?
[01:13:37] Don: Yes.
And we don’t need Rome or Constantinople to tell us whether they are or not. Anyways, AC Peapkorn had a great article about this. About how even from the Roman perspective, our orders are good and fine and valid, or ought to be.
And this is really interesting because everybody just kind of assumes that Lutheran orders are considered null and void. Because that’s what Apostolic curiae said about the Anglican orders, right? They didn’t have the proper form, matter or intent. Therefore it can’t be a proper ordination.
Here’s something though. Rome has never explicitly ruled on Lutheran orders in the way that they have on the Anglican orders. Like we can assume and infer that they wouldn’t find our orders valid. Not that we care anyway, but they technically haven’t ruled against ours. So maybe, maybe years down the line, Rome might even acknowledge our orders to be valid. In fact, this was something that nearly happened at Vatican ii.
It was on the table, they were thinking about it. And Peepkorn again had this. He was one of the Lutheran observers at Vatican II along with Yaroslav Pelikan. And oh, who’s the third guy? Name escapes me.
Not as important as the other two.
And Peep Corn was there. And the Catholics really did consider for a little bit at least acknowledging Lutheran orders. But then they decided it would be too difficult because there were too many synods at the time.
And how could you possibly police it or tell which ones followed and which ones didn’t? And the reason that Lutheran orders are a little more acceptable to people who have this view of the traditional order of apostolic succession, where you have to have the laying on of hands, is because we have never rejected the laying on of hands. We have always maintained it for our pastors.
And this goes from the Scandinavian countries where we even kept the historic episcopacy, and into the German countries where we rejected the episcopate in name, but we still practiced it essentially with superintendents and whatnot.
And the general practice for the Church of Rome is that they will have at least three bishops present when they consecrate a bishop to maintain clear succession and make sure that nobody can challenge it and say, oh, well, you know, one or two of those guys didn’t have valid succession, so now nobody knows.
Instead they would have three. We Lutherans don’t just have three bishops present. When we do the laying on of hands for ordination, we have all the surrounding pastors present for the laying on of hands. And something to understand about Lutheran orders is that a lot of people think that we don’t have bishops, we just have the equivalent of priests. And that’s not it at all. We no longer have just priests. We do as the New Testament has, where Presbuteroi and Episcopoi and and Poyomen, they’re all the same. You know, pastor, bishop, priest, it’s all the same thing for us. We flatten those three tiered layers where Rome says no, there’s distinction between bishops and priests and deacons and everything else. And we say no, there’s one shepherd, that’s it, pastoral office. And so we don’t have the equivalent of priests. We have the Roman equivalent of bishops in every church. Every Lutheran pastor is the local Lutheran bishop.
And so when we have our ordinations, we’re not just ordaining we’re essentially consecrating bishops. So when we do the laying on of hands, we don’t just have three bishops present, we have, you know, 15 or you know, 20, however many pastors happen to be present for it. So we have maintained apostolic succession and we know that even through the actual process. But more than that, and far more important than the action of ordination, the right of it is the teaching that it affirms.
Does that make sense? The teaching that it affirms is more important than the rite itself.
And that’s how we maintain true apostolic succession, which is nothing more than successing the apostolic teaching of the church from one generation to the next.
So if anybody wants to try to say that we have presbyter ordination. No, we don’t.
We don’t. And if somebody tries to say that we don’t have valid orders, we do. And we don’t care what anyone else thinks. Nana, nana, boo, boo.
[01:19:12] Remy: So hear me out on this. No, Rome has never directly addressed our orders, but they do accept our sacrament as valid.
[01:19:32] Don: We gotta qualify that. We got to qualify that they accept baptism as valid because it’s a trinitarian baptism, just as we accept any trinitarian baptism as valid. Not Mormons, those aren’t trinitarian, but they don’t necessarily or across the board accept our sacrament of the altar as valid.
So some do, some come close to. It doesn’t. The Pope, Pope Benedict had a wonderful brotherly letter before he was Pope. So this isn’t an ex cathedra statement or anything like that.
He had a letter where he stated that the even a church. Let’s see if I can get the right wording. Even a church that values the traditional apostolic succession need not deny the life giving presence in the Lord’s Supper. At a Lutheran Lord’s Supper. That’s not the exact wording, but that’s the essence of what he said. He didn’t outright say that it is the sacrament proper, but he did say that there is something going on there, some sort of presence.
And it does have to be further qualified that, you know, he’s talking with a friend and he’s thinking out loud. He’s not right. He’s not stating the opinion of the Roman Church.
I think we’re not too many centuries away from Rome acknowledging that any church that professes the real presence may indeed have it.
But.
[01:21:20] Remy: So if Rome ever did profess that, even if they never addressed orders, holy orders, they would, that would be a tacit affirmation of holy orders. Just based on Rome’s own view of the office, indelible character, etc. Etc. If you’re to say that our priests can do this thing that your priests do, then our priests must also be valid, because according to their own theology, our priests couldn’t do the thing if they weren’t valid priests.
[01:21:54] Don: This is where I’m hesitant to say something concrete, because let’s be real, Rome’s doctrine is far more malleable than ours.
They believe in a development of doctrine and Elizabeth elucidation of the Holy Spirit that makes doctrine clearer over time. And so they’re able to kind of change and refine it. And I could see a number of ways that they could totally not change what their theology says in order to accommodate Lutheranism.
And Rome’s done that kind of thing before, but ultimately they. They want to save face, and we aren’t anywhere close to that. Now.
[01:22:42] Remy: Do you think.
Do you think Rome, on the development of doctrine, end of things, which do you think is more likely for Rome in the next 150, 200 years? That they accept Lutheranism and un excommunicate Luther, etc. Or that they start blessing gay weddings and. Or female priests?
[01:23:13] Don: Oh, man.
[01:23:14] Remy: Which way do you think the pendulum will swing for them?
[01:23:17] Don: Oh, man, that’s rough. That’s rough.
Well, if their conversations with the Lutheran World Federation continue, then I don’t think Rome is going to be headed in a good spot. And that’ll lead to a very, very great schism that will make the original great schism look like practice.
[01:23:44] Remy: This is something. I’m sorry to cut you off, but this is something that, like I talk to my sister a lot about is that I don’t envy at all the position that Pope Francis is in right now, because anytime he makes any kind of a statement on one of these issues, he has to thread a very thin line. And people have often been sort of put off by how ambiguous his statements about, like, blessing gay marriages and things like this are. But he has to do that because he has two very large factions that want exactly opposite things. And if he commits too hard one way or the other, he’s gonna create a schism. You know what I mean? So he has to be able to put out a statement on blessing gay marriage that the people who are against it can support and the people who are for it can also support. That’s a very difficult needle to thread.
[01:24:44] Don: Yeah. And this is where it’s important to look at the things that Pope Francis actually says. I know people like to Accuse him of being a liberation theologian who follows, you know, this guy, Gustavo Gutierrez. He’s not.
He’s a Roman Catholic, and a pretty standard Roman Catholic.
Does he say things in a pastoral way to try to soften it more than popes have in the past? Oh, yeah.
Does he kind of understand the politics of the times? No doubt he’s very shrewd. He’s a Jesuit. They have lots of tricks.
But he’s a Christian.
He’s a Roman Catholic. He’s not ever going to say that gay marriage is acceptable. He can’t.
[01:25:40] Remy: Right.
[01:25:44] Don: I don’t know what we’ll see with Rome. I don’t think in our lifetime we will see anything like an accommodation for gay couples within the Roman Church. It’s just not going to happen.
I know the Diocese of New York has done its weirdness with blessings that it would give to anybody and trying to kind of like turn that into a quasi marriage blessing. But again, outside of a certain Jesuit, that’s not really what’s happening there.
[01:26:20] Remy: Right.
[01:26:21] Don: I.
You’re asking which one’s more likely, that they. That they venerate Luther as a saint or that they promote gay marriage?
I think Luther gets canonized before that happens.
[01:26:37] Remy: Wow.
[01:26:39] Don: And I don’t think that leads to any sort of acknowledgment of Lutheran orders nor intercommunion with Lutherans. I think it ends up just leading to confusion.
[01:26:52] Remy: Yeah. No. And. Well, and that makes sense. That makes sense. What with them being the church of the Antichrist and all that confusion would be the fruit of any work done.
[01:27:10] Don: And there’s another option here that I think is more likely, which is that we maintain the status quo and nothing changes.
But there are good things happening, too.
I don’t want this to be, you know, crapping on Rome because what used to be the pcpcu, the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. I forget what they call it now.
It changed its name, but they’re meeting with what they call Concordia Lutherans.
Those are Lutherans who actually profess the Book of Concord.
And, you know, God be praised. There’s been some fruitful talks there.
One of the professors who I did my independent study with, Dr. Olawski, is in fact, one of the guys who’s gone and been part of those. He’s had an audience, private audience, with two different popes now.
[01:28:05] Remy: So, you know, they put a.
They put out a paper with the ilc. Right, right. Not too long ago.
[01:28:15] Don: Yes. And that one was a wonderful breakthrough. And there is an addendum that President Harrison of my church body added, that talks all about Lutheran orders because there was a question on whether Lutherans actually believed ordination to be necessary.
And while we don’t believe that it is a dominical sacrament, we absolutely believe that it is not necessary within the church. And so we clarified there for them. And if someone is a nerd like us and wants to know what Lutherans teach about Lutheran orders, read President Harrison’s response to that. It’s really easy to find. You can just search ilc, pcpcu, what is it? Final something or other. And you’ll.
[01:29:06] Remy: You can just look in the show notes. It’ll be in the show notes.
[01:29:09] Don: Good. Yeah. Let Remy do the hard work for you.
[01:29:13] Remy: That’s right. That’s what I’m here for. Speaking of the hard work, keeping it sort of on a. I’m trying to keep these questions in order here as our conversation moves through them. Here’s one for you. Okay. When Jesus said, this is my body, this is my blood. Blood, take, eat, take, drink. Okay. I admit a hundred percent that it was in some mysterious way his body and blood. That night at that, at that meal, at the Last Supper, because the man himself was saying and doing it. My question is, how do we know that now, 2,000 years later, it’s not just a memorial? How do we know it’s still his body and blood?
[01:29:58] Don: What were the words that Jesus said when he gave them his. His body and when he gave them his blood?
[01:30:05] Remy: Take, eat, take, drink, do this.
No, that’s good.
[01:30:13] Don: His own words are pretty self explanatory.
[01:30:20] Remy: That’s good. I usually go with Paul’s discourse about the Eucharist where.
[01:30:27] Don: Corinthians.
[01:30:30] Remy: Where you’re guilty concerning the very body and blood of the Lord. How can you be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord if it’s not the body and blood of the Lord?
[01:30:37] Don: By the way, that is one of the verses that ended up convincing, now a teacher at the St. Louis Seminary to become Lutheran. He had been a Baptist, but as he started reading Greek, he realized you can’t stay Baptist.
[01:30:52] Remy: Amazing.
[01:30:53] Don: Yeah.
[01:30:54] Remy: God bless. Now if only we could teach the other Baptists how to read Greek. I mean, read Greek.
[01:31:02] Don: You know what they call a Baptist who can read?
[01:31:06] Remy: What’s that?
[01:31:07] Don: Presbyterian.
I’m sorry, that’s a Methodist.
That’s a Methodist. I’m sorry. No, no, it was really good. A Baptist who can read is a Methodist. You know what they call a Methodist who has money is a Presbyterian.
[01:31:23] Remy: Oh, gotcha.
No, that seems right. That seems Correct.
All right, let’s see, man. Oh, okay. So last question here. This one’s actually been asked twice in two different ways. Ways.
But I’m just going to ask it in a consolidated third way. It’s a very simple question. Knock it out of the park. I’m certain you can, Don. Why are some people saved and not others?
[01:32:01] Don: That’s above my pay grade.
You’ll have to ask God.
Okay, so God, in his good and gracious will, desires for all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth, period.
Jesus Christ, in his death, has conquered death for all. He has made atonement for all people of all times and all places.
And yet still some reject that gift.
That is entirely the fault of sinful human beings who reject the gift. That’s not God predestining them.
That’s God in his permissive will permitting them to reject him.
God is good. He’s not the author of evil. He doesn’t create things to destroy them.
That’s not his nature.
He’s good.
[01:33:09] Remy: So when the Calvinist tries to get around double predestination because it is wicked and evil, they’ll say, oh, well, like R.C. sproul is famous for this. God chooses to save some and then he just passes over others. But that’s just effectively double predestination. That’s just choosing to save some and choosing to damn others is no different than choosing to save some and choosing not to save others. It’s the same thing. It’s like when. It’s like when they do that trick with John 3:16, where they say that whosoever believes is actually better rendered all those who believe. And it’s like, well, that’s the same thing. That’s. You’re actually just saying the same thing with different words.
So it’s like that where they’re still. Even with this language of passing over, they’re still affirming double predestination.
Is it maybe good to say that in the Lutheran view, God doesn’t pass over anyone, that God truly works and wants and wills to save every single person, but that people are allowed to reject that salvation? So then it really is in no way on God. It’s not that he passed over them or that he actively damned them. In fact, God actively did everything he could.
[01:34:29] Don: I mean, this is. This is full monarchism, right? We are the. God is completely responsible for our salvation, and the only ones responsible for our destruction are ourselves. That’s it. Yeah.
[01:34:43] Remy: Yeah.
[01:34:45] Don: Yeah.
[01:34:46] Remy: Yep.
[01:34:49] Don: I need to get some new softball. Really washed out.
[01:34:54] Remy: No, it’s all right. You. You don’t live in one of those sunny beach states, so how could you have a nice tan?
[01:35:00] Don: Don’t.
I do got a nice tan, though. Check this out, though. I’ve been out on the boat and fishing with. With guys and shooting the guns and. Oh, you can’t really see it, man. Yeah, there. There, you can see it. See?
[01:35:13] Remy: Yeah.
Out on the boat in the ocean. Oh, no.
Is it like. Is it a corn boat? It’s a corn boat that you, like, take through the corn lakes and rivers.
[01:35:26] Don: In God’s country up here.
[01:35:28] Remy: Oh.
Oh, okay. Gotcha.
Don, thank you so much for agreeing to come back. Thanks for helping me kick off season four.
[01:35:42] Don: Yeah, it’s been a lot of fun. I wish I could redo the first 15 minutes where it was just like, me babbling.
[01:35:51] Remy: I’ll cut it. I’ll cut it for. It’ll be fine. No one will know.
[01:35:55] Don: Good, good. Remy, thanks for having me on. It’s always a pleasure. Thank you. We should. We should do this more often, and I will be awake more.
[01:36:08] Remy: Excellent, excellent. Thank you for signing up to be my co host, and I love you so much.
[01:36:15] Don: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute.
[01:36:18] Remy: Isn’t that what you just said? That’s what you just said, Donald. You just said it.
So no takesy backsies. I love you. God bless you. And we’ll see around the Internet, huh?
[01:36:33] Don: Yeah, yeah. Maybe I might have to stay off of there after you splice some of my quotes. We’ll see.
[01:36:40] Remy: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We’re getting good and choppy with this one.
[01:36:45] Don: All right. Well, wonderful. Remy, God bless you. With you. Thank you, brother.
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