Dr. Chris Caughey joins Lutheran Answers to uncover the rich tapestry of Christ in the Old Testament, exploring types, shadows, and promises fulfilled in Jesus. From Moses’ intercession to Jonah’s struggles, this episode reveals the deep Christological threads woven through Scripture.
In this episode of Lutheran Answers, Dr. Chris Caughey, Lutheran pastor and scholar, discusses the presence of Christ in the Old Testament. The conversation explores how key figures like Moses, Abraham, David, and Joseph serve as types and shadows pointing to Christ’s ultimate fulfillment of God’s promises. Dr. Caughey explains the purpose of the Mosaic Law, Israel’s need for a perfect representative, and the significance of Old Testament events and symbols, such as the Passover and manna, as precursors to the Eucharist.
The discussion also delves into more nuanced topics, like biblical theology, the organic growth of God’s revelation in Scripture, and how figures like Jonah and Esther embody themes that ultimately point to Christ. Through lively dialogue, the episode illuminates the profound interconnectedness of Scripture and its focus on the person and work of Jesus Christ.
More From Dr. Caughey
Parting Thought
As the Old Testament clearly reveals, God’s plan for salvation has always centered on Christ. Each figure and event in Scripture points us toward the one who fulfills the law, bears our sin, and leads us to the ultimate promised land. In Christ, we find the better Adam, Moses, and David—the perfect Savior who brings life and redemption to all.
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Remy: I have written my thesis, obviously, my outline. I’ve got at least a draft done, and I’m working on, you know, building that out.
None of that.
I’ve got an outline. I’ve definitely done the research, and I’ve got mental notes.
[00:00:31] Dr. Caughey: So that’s as much of the paper as is done, huh?
[00:00:35] Remy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don’t tell my professor.
[00:00:39] Dr. Caughey: Okay. It’ll be our little secret.
[00:00:42] Remy: Excellent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I. I do have time slated to work on it, though, so.
Oh, hiding your background.
[00:00:55] Dr. Caughey: Well, I’m just wondering if I should.
[00:01:00] Remy: I’m leaving all this in.
They’ve already seen the background.
[00:01:05] Dr. Caughey: Very nice. Okay.
[00:01:15] Remy: Oh, oh, from beyond the void or.
Oh, interesting, interesting, fascinating. Dr. Cahi, thank you for volunteering to be on my show.
[00:01:38] Dr. Caughey: Well, thank you, Remy. It’s good to be here.
[00:01:40] Remy: Yes, sir.
How long have we known each other now?
[00:01:46] Dr. Caughey: Oh, my goodness.
At least two years, doesn’t it?
[00:01:51] Remy: Two years? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it was the 2023 Pastors Conference. I think we have, like, really met for the first time.
[00:02:01] Dr. Caughey: Right.
But we may have bumped him into each other in a. In a, you know, class or something before that.
[00:02:09] Remy: Yeah. And I think Twitter as well.
[00:02:12] Dr. Caughey: Yes.
[00:02:13] Remy: There’s a lot of people that I like. I like, joke around with on Twitter. I’m mutuals with on Twitter. And then like, I show up to conferences or conventions or whatever for the aalc, or I show up to a class and it’s like, oh, you’re my Twitter mutual. That’s weird that you’re a real person.
[00:02:31] Dr. Caughey: That happened at this last pastor’s conference. I can’t remember his name, but you.
You had a Twitter mutual that joined us for.
[00:02:40] Remy: Oh, yeah.
Ian. Yeah. Always showed up after hours. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it also happened with Will Green in this class, this church history class, because Will and I have been following each other on Twitter for a while and we even talked on the phone. I don’t really remember this, but he was thinking about whether or not he should apply to alts, and he asked if he could call me and talk to me. And we swapped numbers and we talked.
And then I don’t know, I guess he joined alts. He enrolled. So I get like a commission check now. I don’t know how that works. I’ll figure that out. But yeah. And then we were Twitter mutuals for a while, and then he was in class and I was like, oh, you’re the Twitter guy. You know, Great, Wonderful.
And then I ended up spending a lot of time with Will at This pastor’s conference. And God, I love that man to death. What a great guy. I need to get him on, too.
[00:03:35] Dr. Caughey: Oh, you could have conversations with him.
[00:03:38] Remy: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So, Dr. Cahi, tell me a little bit about yourself.
[00:03:45] Dr. Caughey: Well, I am a pastor of two churches in rural Kentucky. There’s an LCMS congregation in Maysville, Kentucky, and then at AALC congregation in Augusta, Kentucky. And I’ve been serving them for two years now. I arrived November 2022.
And I also teach church history and Old Testament for alts.
And yeah, I think that covers most of the basics.
[00:04:24] Remy: Okay, very good that the alts getting a lot of love from me this season. It’s really, it’s not intentional, but like, everybody.
I’ve talked about it with like, just about everybody now, so I, I’m planning a time to have Dr. Lyons to come on to like, literally just talk about alts, which I. Great.
So you are Dr. Chris Caughey.
The Reverend Doctor Most Honorable Chris Caughey.
What are you a doctor of?
[00:05:02] Dr. Caughey: My Ph.D. i guess would technically be in historical theology. I studied a handful of Puritans from across the Atlantic.
So that’s my terminal.
[00:05:19] Remy: Okay. Okay.
And you’re.
You started out Reformed, huh?
[00:05:27] Dr. Caughey: Yes, I did. Well, I mean, I started out life as a broad evangelical, but I discovered Reformed theology when I was in high school and ended up going to Westminster Seminary, California.
And I was deeply convinced of Reformed theology for probably a good 25 to 30 years.
And then it was actually, it was actually my PhD that pushed me out. I realized I just. If that was Reformed, I couldn’t do that anymore.
[00:06:00] Remy: So not what we’re going to be talking about tonight. And I know a whole bunch of people probably were just like, dang it, because that would make. That would make a heck of an episode. But I would like to touch on it just a little bit, if you don’t mind. And just what were, what were some of the things you were studying? You said like the Puritans and whatnot. What were some of the things you were studying that pushed you out of Reformed theology? And then how did you land in Lutheranism?
[00:06:33] Dr. Caughey: Well, okay, I knew about Lutheranism because way back when I was an Undergrad, in the mid-90s, I was listening to the White Horse in radio show on terrestrial radio.
So I knew about Rod Rosenblatt, and if it hadn’t been for him, I might not know what Lutheranism was. But then also because of some really bad stuff that I went through in Reformed churches, I was listening on repeat to Rod Rosenblatt’s talk, the Gospel for those broken by the church. And I was super impressed with the fact that he could look me in the eye and tell me that Christ died for me and not flinch. He wasn’t crossing his fingers behind his back.
He was sincerely convinced of that, and that was deeply attractive to me.
I wanted that, but I wasn’t there yet.
So Westminster Seminary California had set me up to believe that Reformed equals Puritan, Puritan equals Reformed. And so I thought that when I dove into studying these Puritans, I was going to find exactly what I had gotten in seminary. And it just turned out not to be the case at all. I mean, there was just morbid introspection, a grinding legalism.
I remember the very first day that I started reading for my PhD. I read about how there were even suicides in England among Puritans because they just couldn’t deal with the demands of that religious system. So that’s when I realized, okay, if this is Reformed, I can’t be Reformed. And so I started consuming as many Lutheran podcasts as I could while I was over there. And it really was when I got back to the United States that I discovered Dr. Jordan Cooper and Brian Wolf Mueller, and they were extremely helpful.
[00:08:46] Remy: Yeah, yeah. Both of them.
Yeah. Very good, Very good. And now you’re on the greatest Lutheran podcast that has ever been. So that’s. That’s. That’s really. That’s neat. Full circle.
[00:09:02] Dr. Caughey: I’m finally going to get some Lutheran answers tonight.
[00:09:05] Remy: That’s right. Yeah. Ask. Ask away. Any questions you have.
I don’t know if people know this, but I’m like the Pope for us, and anything I say is authoritative and binding.
[00:09:17] Dr. Caughey: Okay.
[00:09:18] Remy: Yeah. So, you know, feel free.
[00:09:22] Dr. Caughey: So I might take you up on that.
[00:09:24] Remy: Yeah, yeah. So you are, in addition to.
So you said like. Like historical theology.
And I guess. I guess it makes sense, then that you are also very well versed on the Old Testament, because I guess that’s probably about as historical as the theology can get when you come right down to it. But you. You.
You teach Old Testament at Alts. I took that class. It was very good.
And you know quite a bit about the Old Testament.
[00:10:04] Dr. Caughey: What.
[00:10:04] Remy: What sort of background do you have there?
[00:10:08] Dr. Caughey: I had a professor at Westminster Seminary, California, that just left an indelible imprint on my life, and he was teaching Old Testament biblical theology. And so I still love it to this day. I wish that I had done biblical theology for my PhD rather than historical theology, but what’s done is done. But I Still have a deep love for Old Testament biblical theology because of him.
[00:10:45] Remy: How do you define biblical theology? Because when I went to Liberty, which is where I did my undergrad, they I had a class on biblical theology and the professor was a reformed guy. There’s actually a lot of them at Liberty and they’re all like, secret about it because Liberty’s not a reform Baptist school. But they have a lot of like Reformed Presbyterians and other, other guys there like that.
And he said biblical theology was garbage. He said it was, it was garbage because it was a meaningless term theologically that, that everyone says biblical theology and they mean different things.
[00:11:31] Dr. Caughey: That could very well be true. What I mean by it is that there are basically four broad divisions to the theological exegetical theology, systematic theology, historical theology, and practical theology. And I would see biblical theology as a subcategory of that first one. Exegetical theology and systematic theology wants to arrange the biblical data topically. What does the Bible teach about X. Right.
And that’s a very necessary program. We need to do that. But biblical theology recognizes that the Bible wasn’t given as a systematic theology. You can’t turn to the chapter on sin or you can’t turn to the chapter on, I don’t know, you know, the doctrine of God or whatever. But, but it is the organizing principle of the Bible is history.
It starts in Genesis and it ends in revelation. And even though some things in between might be considered slightly out of order, it’s generally the principle of history that organizes the Bible. And so biblical theology wants to trace that history and see the unfolding of God’s self disclosure, his self revelation in not only word revelation, but also indeed revelation. So it’s, you can think about it as the, the process of a plant growing. It starts as a just a seed and then it sprouts and grows. It might, you know, if it’s a tree, it’s going to begin to develop bark and by the time it’s fully mature, it will be blossoming and you know, bearing fruit and things like that. And so it’s an organic growth. And it’s the same way with the scriptures. We have in Genesis 3:15, the seed of the gospel.
All of the DNA of the gospel is contained in Genesis 3:15. But we don’t get the full picture of everything that the gospel entails until we get to the New Testament.
[00:13:57] Remy: Say like a holistic, I guess, exegesis of the central message of scripture.
[00:14:09] Dr. Caughey: Yeah. And even some what might be considered side messages or.
Yeah, okay.
[00:14:18] Remy: Yeah, that’s it’s similar. It’s similar to the definition that I actually got in my biblical theology class at Liberty. And despite the guy saying everyone says something and means something else and like, no one can agree on what it means, I really haven’t run across anybody that says anything too wildly different from what you just described. So I don’t know, maybe that guy just didn’t get it.
Maybe he just didn’t like it. I don’t know.
[00:14:49] Dr. Caughey: When I was Reformed, I did notice that there were definitely camps of people that were just very opposed to it.
[00:14:59] Remy: Yeah, weird.
Weird. Well, it. Okay, maybe.
Maybe it’s because the Reformed do have this logic, first order, first kind of way about reasoning through the scriptures.
So systematic theology makes a lot of sense from a Reformed perspective because that’s. That’s what the Reformed truly have is this big system of theology. Right. So systematics probably makes a lot more sense when you’re approaching the Scripture from a lawyer’s point of view, where you have to put everything in its little bucket and everything goes in the right place.
And it would make sense that you wouldn’t like then a much more organic reading and understanding of scripture where it gets a little messy, where things are allowed to sort of tumble into one another, you know, and, and mix around and you can get, you know, like you said, the, the central message. But other side themes that sort of grow out of all of these things. I can see why that wouldn’t play well in a theological system that worships the logic and, you know, consistent narrative that man can draw out of, like. You see what I’m saying?
[00:16:30] Dr. Caughey: Yeah. And I mean, that could be. I think one of the main camps, groups that hated biblical theology and probably still does to this day is theonomists. And I don’t know how much you know about theonomy, but it’s the idea that the.
Sorry. That all civil governments of all times and all places ought to be enforcing the Mosaic law in exhaustive detail.
[00:16:59] Remy: I do know about that.
[00:17:00] Dr. Caughey: And so they want to view everything as arrested during the Old Testament period. I mean, during that Mosaic covenant.
And so the idea that there is organic growth out of that situation bothers them. You know, they. The whole point is to replicate and reproduce that Sinai situation.
So that’s so weird.
[00:17:31] Remy: That’s such a weird hill to die on.
I don’t even think it makes sense. It does make for a great segue into our actual topic of Christ in the Old Testament, though, because I get to ask you now, there are. We. We often, I guess, would say that the Mosaic law is divided into buckets. Will we put. Put it into buckets? We’ll say you have your civil law, which is, you know, pay your taxes and don’t kill people. And then you have your ceremonial law, which is all your temple stuff, and, you know, ritual cleanness, and then your moral law, which is the Ten Commandments and that which endures forever.
The. The theonomists, I guess it sounds to me like they’re sort of missing the boat on the mosaic law.
Dr. Cahi, what is the point of the Mosaic Law?
[00:18:41] Dr. Caughey: The point of the Mosaic Law is, I think, to point to the final judgment as at the end of the world.
So it came in as a list of demands. And really, when you read Galatians 3, I hear Paul saying that this is going to use an MMA analogy, but I hear Paul saying that Israel should have tapped out immediately when God gave the law and said, we understand now, we can’t do this. We need a better Israel to do this for us. But instead, they became proud, which seems to be a major theme in Israel’s history, and said, nope, we got this. And so you’ve got lots and lots of judgment going on in the Old Testament. And I think it’s all a type and a shadow of the final judgment that’s coming at the end of the world.
[00:19:41] Remy: Fascinating.
Fascinating. What Israel needs, they need a better Israel to accomplish these laws that are given to them.
Likewise, we need, as it were, a better Adam. Right? We need a better Chris, a better Remy, to accomplish the perfection that God demands of us and will call us to account for in this final judgment.
Where can we find such a.
[00:20:15] Dr. Caughey: Such a better Adam, the God man, Jesus Christ.
And it’s, you know, it’s fascinating that all over the New Testament, but very explicitly in places like Romans 5:12 through 19 or 21st Corinthians 15, I would say the vast majority of that chapter.
Both of those places, Paul is very explicit about comparing and contrasting the historical Adam and the historical Christ.
He does it not quite as explicitly, but he does it again in Ephesians 5. And then we’ve got just allusions to that all over the Gospels, especially with Jesus. Temptation in the wilderness.
But, yes, we need him to obey for us. But I think it’s really because the New Testament authors are treating both of those men, Adam and Christ, as if they had been standing in our place. And because Adam ruined it all for us, Christ restores and perfects it all for us.
[00:21:31] Remy: Amen.
Amen. And for, you know, everybody not just.
Not just the select few.
[00:21:42] Dr. Caughey: Right.
[00:21:42] Remy: That we may or may not know who they are.
Sorry, I had to take a dig at the Calvinists. Once again.
I.
Our. Our theme. Our theme of Christ in the Old Testament. I guess so. We see, you said, the seed of the gospel in Genesis, and we see Israel because of Adam, honestly, because of their sinful nature, failing at this task God has given them, but in their own hubris. Hubris and pride, thinking they can do it and do it well. Well enough.
I. I guess I want to say in that.
In. In Moses.
Let’s. Let’s start with. No, let’s. Yeah, let’s start with Moses, since we’re there in Moses. What. Where. Where do we see this picture of Christ for Israel coming through in Moses? Because Israel needs a Christ. Right? They need one.
Where do we see these images of Christ sort of shining through Moses? Where. Where can we draw parallels and connections here for people?
[00:23:09] Dr. Caughey: Yeah, the. The first one I think of, or at least the first one that came to mind, was when God wanted to just wipe Israel off the face of the earth. And Moses pleaded with God on their behalf and interceded and said, you know, please don’t do that. And so God didn’t. And that’s exactly the same kind of thing that we see our Savior doing for us, although even better.
[00:23:44] Remy: Right.
[00:23:46] Dr. Caughey: But I mean, we see a type and a shadow of Christ in Moses as well. As he leads Israel out of Egypt, through the Red Sea into the wilderness.
And he was intending to lead them into the promised land. He forfeited the right, the ability to actually lead them into the promised land because of his sin. And so we get some positive and negative typology going on there where Christ is leading us into the ultimate promised land, the new heavens and the new earth.
And he has already arrived there. He’s the first human being in the new heavens and the new earth because he’s without sin. Unlike the type of Moses where Moses.
[00:24:42] Remy: Moses commits sin and then is no longer able to go into the promised land. Christ becomes our sin, takes it to the grave, and rather than dying and staying dead outside the promised land, Christ dies, comes back to life, and then enters the promised land and promises. I mean, that’s. I go to my father’s house to prepare a room for you. Right. He promises to come back to take us with him into the promised land.
[00:25:16] Dr. Caughey: That’s exactly right.
[00:25:19] Remy: You mentioned Moses interceding for the people. And it brought to mind that Abraham, who’s another topic that we were going to talk about Christ in the Old Testament.
He does the same thing where he intercedes for Sodom and Gomorrah. Right.
And also, we could argue, like Moses, Jesus did it. Jesus did it better than Abraham, too.
Moses did it better than Abraham. I think.
[00:25:57] Dr. Caughey: Yes, I think you’re right.
[00:26:00] Remy: Yeah, that’s. That’s interesting.
That’s really interesting. Do we, the, the third. The third sort of view of Christ in the Old Testament that we have keyed up is David. So just to go ahead, I’m just going to spoil it for everybody here.
So, David, do we see any intercession on David’s part like this? Can we, can we see David doing intercession?
[00:26:33] Dr. Caughey: I’m struggling to think of an instance of intercession. I mean, he’s the king figure. And, you know, Jews to this day still regard David as the archetypal king figure. But when God says throughout the rest of the Old Testament that his.
His. His Messiah, a descendant of David’s, will sit on David’s throne forever, he’s talking about Jesus Christ. And it’s not a throne in geopolitical Israel. He’s talking about the throne of the. The power of the right hand of God.
[00:27:29] Remy: You say it’s not a throne in geopolitical Israel. And it’s. I’m shocked because you say you’re a doctor and that you’re, you know, you have all this theology, biblical theology knowledge, but you’ve never read Tim LaHaye’s Left Behind. Obviously, I can assure you, sir, it will be a throne in geopolitical Israel.
Why would Jerry B. Jenkins lie to me?
[00:28:00] Dr. Caughey: That’s right. With the sacrifices reinstituted in the temple. Yeah.
[00:28:07] Remy: You know what’s so crazy to me is, and this is not related at all to what we’re actually supposed to be talking about, but I wrote this article on the Antichrist rebuilding the temple and all this for Lutheran answers to answer the question, will the Antichrist rebuild the Third Temple? And as I was doing some research for this, I ran upon a thought that totally shocked me because I can’t believe I have never seen it before. I’ve never thought about it before, but it makes so much sense. The dispensationalists really want to believe that the Antichrist is going to build a third Temple. Right. But he already has. The Dome of the Rock is sitting where the temple should be. How is that not the Antichrist’s third Temple? How is that not the inversion of the Jewish temple by putting the, the, the big Muslim temple right there on the temple Mount. How is that not the Antichrist temple? You know, So I don’t know. It’s wild to me that there’s this insistence that there will be a third Jewish, specific Jewish temple.
And it’s like, look, if the Antichrist is going to build a third temple, he already has. It’s there. It’s the Dome of the Rock, you know, that’s the third temple right there. You know, or, you know, you. Maybe, you know, you and me, when we. When we set up idols in our hearts here, we are sacrificing to ourselves. You know, we are the Antichrist temple. When we put things before God.
I don’t know.
[00:29:38] Dr. Caughey: That’s a good point.
[00:29:39] Remy: Yeah. In the New Testament. I’m sorry, go ahead.
[00:29:42] Dr. Caughey: I was gonna say that. I mean, even Israel’s worship, as soon as.
I guess we could say even as soon as Jesus started his public ministry, but certainly once he died on the cross and rose again, and they kept offering animal sacrifices until 70 A.D. when Rome wiped out all of that.
And the fact that they continue to worship God as if Jesus were not God.
Yeah, you’re absolutely right that all forms of idolatry are Antichrist temples.
[00:30:30] Remy: Yeah. Have you. Have you read that?
That. I don’t.
I want to believe it’s true because it’s a cool thing to believe. So that’s my source.
But it’s. I want to say it’s like a Talmudic commentary or rabbinic commentary. I found it online once. I’ll find it again and put it in the show notes. I want to say it’s in the town in. In one of the, like, Talmuds or whatever. But it is. It’s a commentary from a Pharisee. And he notes how every year at the Passover, they take the scapegoat and they tie a red cloth around it and they send it out into the desert. And the red cloth symbolizes the people’s sins. And eventually the scapegoat comes wandering back. Like, it doesn’t just go out there and die. Like, it eventually wanders back. It knows where home is. Right. But when it wanders back a few days later after being driven out into the desert, this red cloth that they had tied around it is white. And they. They say this shows that God has accepted this. You know, these offerings and all this as. As our. As payment for our sins and that we are at peace with God and all this. And it’s this sort of symbolic. Like, God has chosen to pass over you once again. Right.
And not slay you. And there’s this section where it’s after Jesus dies, where they note that the next Passover, they send the scapegoat out and it comes back two or three days later and it’s still red. The, the ribbon thing around, it’s like the scarf or cloth is still red. And everybody wonders, well, what do we do with this? What does this mean? Right. And it’s because you don’t need the, you don’t need the scapegoat anymore because you had Christ, who is the scapegoat. Right.
So it’s. That’s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’ll. I’ll put a link in the show notes. But yeah, really, really neat.
Yeah. So David is our king figure of Christ, you said. I guess Moses is what, our prophet or lawgiver?
[00:32:42] Dr. Caughey: Yeah, I mean, he does call himself the prophet and that there would be one like him who would come from among the people of Israel in Deuteronomy 18.
So I think we can see both the law and the prophets embodied in Moses.
[00:33:03] Remy: What does Abraham give us then?
[00:33:07] Dr. Caughey: Well, Abraham becomes the occasion for God to give us his promises. You know, it fascinates me that Paul spends so much time in Romans and Galatians arguing for our justification on the basis of Abraham’s justification.
And Abraham didn’t have all of the revelation about Jesus that we have in the New Testament, but he had the exact same promises, even though he was receiving the. The typological version of those promises.
[00:33:43] Remy: How many since we’ve been talking about Christ in the Old Testament? These three figures. And it gets me thinking about, you know, receiving the promises. And I’m a Lutheran, so I’m thinking about the sacraments. And then I’m going to think about receiving the promises of God at the sacrament of the altar in the Eucharist.
What shadows of the Eucharist can you pull out of the Old Testament? How many? Speed round. How many can we.
We don’t have to speed through the speed round. We can spend some time on them if you want. But just off the top of your head, I can only think of three. And specifically one for Abraham, David and Moses, but I can only think of three. Can you think of any shadows of the Eucharist?
[00:34:41] Dr. Caughey: The one that comes to my mind first, only because I’ve spent so much time in this book, is from Ruth, where in Ruth 2, after she works in Boaz’s field, he invites her to join his servants for a meal. And he serves her. And he serves her, essentially bread and wine.
[00:35:03] Remy: Fascinating.
[00:35:05] Dr. Caughey: So.
[00:35:05] Remy: Oh, that’s a Good one.
[00:35:07] Dr. Caughey: You get it there. I’ve read in a psalm recently, I cannot now remember which psalm it was, but a reference to bread and wine, which really struck me as a Eucharistic reference. But what do you have?
[00:35:25] Remy: So I would say Melchizedek giving Abraham a meal of bread and wine. And then he’s. Melchizedek, the Prince of Salem. Right. Or the King of Salem, something like this.
So he’s. He’s.
How does that. How does that translate out? I know Hebrews, I think does some work for us there. And then you can look at the. In Hebrew, at the names and whatnot. But what does it come out to? He’s the. The King of kings and the Prince of Peace is like, literally how Melchizedek, the Prince of Salem, translates out. And he gives Abraham a meal of bread and wine. Amazing.
Moses with the Passover.
[00:36:18] Dr. Caughey: Right.
[00:36:19] Remy: But also, I would say Moses with the manna, the bread of life that comes down from heaven.
[00:36:31] Dr. Caughey: Right. And sustains the wine there. But. But, I mean, you can’t miss what Jesus says in John 6 about his body being the bread of life. Yeah.
[00:36:42] Remy: Another one where I guess we’re missing the wine.
Is David taking the showbread and offering it to. I think that’s probably pretty strongly eucharistic. I just. The showbread in general, I think is strongly eucharistic, so.
[00:37:00] Dr. Caughey: Amen.
[00:37:02] Remy: Very good.
Very good. What are your. What are your favorite depictions of Christ in the Old Testament? Or what are some that have just. That have floored you? You’ve read through it and you thought, oh, holy crap, that’s Jesus.
[00:37:20] Dr. Caughey: Gosh, there’s so many.
I was just talking about Ruth, and Boaz really is the Christ figure in the book of Ruth. He’s the kinsman redeemer of Naomi and therefore of Ruth. And.
[00:37:40] Remy: That’S.
[00:37:41] Dr. Caughey: Well, especially because at the end of the story, we find out that it’s just a few generations down from Naomi that we’re gonna get David. And we all know, you know, that Christ comes from David’s line.
And so anyway, even though Boaz was a kinsman redeemer to Naomi and Ruth, Christ is the kinsman redeemer of the whole world of all mankind.
God became man in order to redeem us other Christ figures. I mean, we’ve talked about Moses leading the people into the promised land.
Well, then. Then we’ve got Joshua, who actually does lead Israel into the promised land. And it’s no accident that in Hebrew, his, you know, his name is the same name as Jesus’s name. Yeah, we should certainly see parallels there.
[00:38:53] Remy: He also parts. It’s a river. Right. It walks his people across that.
[00:39:02] Dr. Caughey: That’s right.
[00:39:03] Remy: So.
[00:39:05] Dr. Caughey: And I don’t know if this is getting us off of the type. Anti type stuff with, with Christ, but Paul sure seems to interpret those water ordeals of both the Red Sea and the River Jordan as baptism events.
[00:39:26] Remy: Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah.
And then of course, famously amongst Lutherans, Peter is going to take the flood as a baptizing event for Noah and his family.
It’s. It’s interesting. Noah’s interesting because I mean, I guess you could say maybe there’s a. A type. A type of Christ there, but it really. Noah’s more like us a type of the Christian than he is the Savior, because he’s not. He’s not the savior in that story. He.
He’s us in that story. He’s. He’s telling the world, you know, sort of preaching to the world and then relying on God to save him at the end. You know, he’s not really.
I don’t know that we could make a. I mean, maybe we could make a Jesus at it. I’m sure, I’m sure there’s a Saint Hippopotamus in 384 AD. I’m sure he did it. You know, he found it somewhere.
[00:40:42] Dr. Caughey: One of the desert fathers.
[00:40:43] Remy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s. There’s. There’s some guy somewhere that’s found the, the Jesus in that.
What about Esther?
Esther’s a weird book. How do we feel about Esther?
[00:40:57] Dr. Caughey: Esther is a weird book, but we have king and bride imagery there.
And so at least thematically we can see the bride of Christ theme being involved there.
But then, I mean, then we also have the theme of self sacrifice for the, the nation. And Esther is willing to die if the king is displeased with her request, but she goes ahead and makes the request and ends up saving the entire nation of, of Israel. That was, that was there. Obviously.
[00:41:49] Remy: I.
Go ahead.
[00:41:52] Dr. Caughey: No, I was just going to say we have to. Because God is not mentioned explicitly in the book of Esther. We have to go based more on themes, I think.
[00:42:02] Remy: Yeah, yeah. Vibes.
[00:42:05] Dr. Caughey: Right.
[00:42:06] Remy: Yeah.
I.
My high school did a play about Esther and I was in it. It was great. I was a eunuch in the play. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fun fact. They actually castrated me for the play. It was a really fundamentalist school. No, but I, it was. I was in like sixth grade at the time and it was. Me and a buddy of mine were like Two eunuchs that were just sort of comedic relief throughout the play and had no real scriptural basis, you know?
And I don’t know, I, I, I, I don’t know if it’s just sort of the, the tinting of the memory of that play on the way I read Esther, but it feels to me like the king truly loves Esther. And it’s not just that, like she’s smoking hot, which I think is implied from the text, that she’s like, an absolute knockout, right? But it seems that it’s more than just physical infatuation. It seems like he’s truly in love with her. And so when she comes to him and makes this request, it’s almost as if, you know, because there’s. Oh, there’s a chance the king will be displeased with you, you know, and will strike you down. But she comes and she makes this request, and it’s almost like the king is saying, like, why wouldn’t I give you anything you wanted? You’re my wife. I love you. You know, I will, of course I will give you what you ask, right? And I don’t know. I think it’s, I think maybe there’s sort of a parallel to Christ’s intercession for us, right. Where so, so beloved of the Father that Christ the Son comes, and it’s like, why, when Christ the Son comes before the Father, why wouldn’t the Father bend his ear to anything that the Son asks of him? Right. Like, you like this kind of, you know, of course you’re, you know, of.
[00:44:25] Dr. Caughey: Course you’re my beloved. Right?
[00:44:27] Remy: Yeah. Yeah.
So I, I think that’s, I think that’s interesting. Is it true that in Hebrew, in Esther Ute, there’s, like, anagrams of, of the divine name throughout the text? Is that true?
[00:44:44] Dr. Caughey: I think so. It’s been a minute since I’ve, Yeah. Worked on Esther, but I think that’s true.
[00:44:50] Remy: I would have to look that up again, too.
That’s one of those things they tell you when. So I grew up Pentecostal, you know, and that’s one of those. They’re one of those, like, little fun facts that they always spout out. But then, like, later on, when you get out of that tradition and you realize how much of the theology was wonky and how much of the facts were, like, weird conspiracy theories, then you start wondering about all of them.
[00:45:12] Dr. Caughey: Like. Right.
[00:45:13] Remy: How much of this was actually true?
So, but, like, the, like, the scapegoat thing, it sounds cool. And that’s my Proof. I’m gonna believe it. I’m gonna believe it because it’s a cool thing to believe.
[00:45:26] Dr. Caughey: That’s so funny.
[00:45:30] Remy: What about. So we’ve talked about Moses. What about Aaron? What can we draw out of Aaron, do you think?
[00:45:38] Dr. Caughey: The first high priest, right?
And so, yeah, he was sacrificing for the. The whole nation of Israel, paying for their sins the way that God had prescribed that the sins should be paid for.
Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.
And entering behind the veil into the holy of holies to minister in God’s very presence. So, yeah, I think we see Christ, our high priest, in what Aaron was doing.
Yeah, I mean, minus the golden calf part. Right.
[00:46:26] Remy: Well, here’s. Okay, look, here’s the thing about that, all right? Big misconception, okay? All the people threw their gold into the fire and the calf just popped out. Oh, it just fell out. That’s. It’s the weirdest thing.
[00:46:43] Dr. Caughey: I totally misunderstood.
[00:46:47] Remy: That’s. It’s funny because that’s what he tells Moses, right? When Moses goes down the mountain, he’s like. He’s like, look, you’re not going to believe this.
I like that Moses then turns around and makes them eat it too. Like, that’s such a boss move.
That’s so great.
[00:47:06] Dr. Caughey: Yes.
Fantastic.
[00:47:10] Remy: Aaron. I think Aaron gets.
He gets a little bit of the shaft in our sort of overview because, like, we, we attribute a lot to Moses, especially in, like, media, you know, where we have these portrayals of Moses standing up to Pharaoh and, and all this. But, like, if you read the account, Moses stuttered, right? He says, he says he’s got a slow tongue or whatever and didn’t seem to be the most charismatic kind of guy. And Aaron was the guy that was actually doing all the talking for him. So he would tell Aaron what to say and Aaron would say it. So we see all these, like, depictions of Moses standing up to Pharaoh. But, like, it was kind of Aaron was. It was the guy there, you know, he was the guy that had to look Pharaoh in the eyes and be like, hey, God’s gonna kill your kids.
[00:48:12] Dr. Caughey: That’s exactly right. Yeah.
[00:48:15] Remy: Not. Not the position I’d want to be in.
[00:48:19] Dr. Caughey: No. Kind of makes me wonder if maybe Moses actually had like a high pitched squeaky voice or something.
[00:48:26] Remy: Something just like, totally embarrassing.
[00:48:29] Dr. Caughey: Exactly.
Whereas Aaron sounded like this. Yeah, yeah.
[00:48:36] Remy: And Moses, Moses, like, first drafted the book and he’s like. And then there was Moses, the greatest orator. And like a bush next to him lights up on fire and he scribbles it out. Fine, fine.
Slow of tongue.
[00:48:52] Dr. Caughey: Oh, that’s awesome.
[00:49:00] Remy: Joseph, obviously. Big Jesus figure.
[00:49:05] Dr. Caughey: Yes.
Yeah. You want to talk about Joseph for a minute?
[00:49:10] Remy: Let’s talk about Joseph for a minute.
[00:49:15] Dr. Caughey: I mean, clear allusions to Christ in his dreams about his brothers bowing down to him and his brothers just being out of their minds, furious that he would even have a dream like that. Who are you to think that we’re gonna bow down to you? Which is exactly how Israel responds to Jesus when a hundred percent, when the king comes on the scene.
[00:49:40] Remy: Wow, I’ve never even thought about that part.
[00:49:46] Dr. Caughey: And you, I guess Jesus wasn’t beaten and left for dead. I mean, he was beaten and crucified and killed, but I mean, Joseph’s brothers sell him into slavery and then in the situation in Potiphar’s house, he’s falsely accused by Potiphar’s wife, just like Jesus is falsely accused and yet in spite of the false accusation, gets promoted to the highest position.
You know, Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, whereas Joseph was only the right hand man of Pharaoh.
But yeah, some, some very rich and theologically fruitful connections I think we can see between Joseph and Jesus.
[00:50:46] Remy: The coat has to mean something, right?
[00:50:51] Dr. Caughey: Yeah, Gosh, I haven’t thought about that in a minute.
[00:50:55] Remy: Because they like the, the biblical authors, they aren’t just going to give us details like that.
[00:51:00] Dr. Caughey: Right.
[00:51:01] Remy: For no reason. Like the fact that we’re going to mention the code at all or mention that it was such fine fabric that it was. Does the Bible does say of many colors, right?
[00:51:11] Dr. Caughey: It does.
[00:51:12] Remy: So it’s got to mean something, I guess. Many colors. I’m going to think rainbow.
And God’s promise to never destroy the world in that way again. Right. But God’s promised to look upon man with mercy. And then that gets us to revelation. There’s around the throne of God, there is that like emerald sort of rainbow that God is always looking through whenever he looks down on the earth. So he’s always looking through that sort of reflection of his promise that I will look upon them with mercy.
Maybe we could say something like Joseph being clothed in the promise. Something like this.
I don’t know.
[00:52:04] Dr. Caughey: I like that.
[00:52:06] Remy: Got to be something there, something there. We’ll dig into it. We’ll dig into it at some point.
[00:52:11] Dr. Caughey: Yes.
And I mean, we’ve also got the whole task that Joseph was given to store up food because he was, thanks to God’s interpretive revelation to him, able to say your dream Pharaoh means that we’re headed into a famine and so we need to save food while we can. And he essentially saves Israel that way by saving his brothers and his father. And so.
[00:52:52] Remy: Wow. And there’s another guy that saves Israel.
[00:52:55] Dr. Caughey: Oh, is there?
[00:52:56] Remy: There is.
There is. And not just, not just the tribes, but in fact a multitude too great to count.
[00:53:07] Dr. Caughey: Amen.
[00:53:09] Remy: Yeah.
Wow, that’s really good. We got at least 10ish minutes here. Are there any other, any other Jesus in the Old Testament, things you can, you want to, you want to poke at a little bit here?
[00:53:31] Dr. Caughey: You know, I think of Jonah as being kind of one of the, in some ways, I don’t want to say anti type, because that sounds like I’m talking about Christ, but, you know, the opposite of a positive type, a negative type. That’s what I’m going for.
Jonah is assigned to go and take the gospel to Gentiles. Right. People in Nineveh. And he’s so bent out of shape about that. He’s so angry. He wants the Ninevites to be judged and to go to hell. Yeah.
And you know, the fact of the matter is each of us has a class or a group of people in our own hearts that we wish would go to hell.
[00:54:21] Remy: Yeah.
[00:54:22] Dr. Caughey: And so thanks be to God that the prophet far greater than Jonah was not angry that he had to leave his father’s side and to become a human being and suffer all of the scorn and the ridicule that especially Israel had to heap upon him. Gosh, if I were Jesus, I would have said, you want Moses, you can have him. I’m out of here.
[00:54:53] Remy: Yeah, honestly.
[00:54:57] Dr. Caughey: But he didn’t. He came and he.
He brought the good news that he was going to keep the law perfectly in our place, that he was going to die innocently in our place and rise victoriously three days later. And so I’m glad that Jesus was not doing it begrudgingly like Jonah.
Although I learned from Wil Whedon that, well, I guess I didn’t learn about the connection between the three days in the belly of the whale and, you know, Jesus is three days in the tomb. That’s pretty explicit in the New Testament. But Pastor Whedon was talking about the idea that Jonah had actually died in the, the belly of the whale and so that when he gets spit up onto the shore, that it is a, a resurrection. Not an ultimate one, but it is a resurrection.
[00:56:02] Remy: Yeah. I had Dr. Jason Goodham on my show and we did a three parter on Jonah and we, we batted that back and forth A little bit as well. Okay. In the.
[00:56:15] Dr. Caughey: I like Jason a lot. What did he have to say about that?
[00:56:17] Remy: He says that he doesn’t think ultimately Jonah did die. He. He just. I don’t think he found enough foundation for it in the text.
It’s one of those. It’s cool. Like, it’s a cool idea.
But ultimately, I think he settled on it’s not necessary for the.
For Jonah to reflect Christ that he absolutely die in the belly of the whale. Like, it’s not necessary. You can’t really tease it out of the text quite so easily. And so, you know, but I don’t think he begrudges anybody who does believe it. I am agnostic on the issue.
Doesn’t.
[00:57:01] Dr. Caughey: You know, again, it.
[00:57:03] Remy: It’s cool. So I believe it.
[00:57:06] Dr. Caughey: I. I’m with you. I’m not.
I’m not sure I can prove it from the text either, but we do get death imagery from the water itself. I mean, that’s the way Israel conceived of the sea. Was that, you know, the place where you went to die? Because they just were not seafarers. They were, okay, maybe the Sea of Galilee kind of thing, but the CC.
[00:57:34] Remy: So do you think when St. Paul.
Because St. Paul went all the way to Spain, do you think when St. Paul gets called to the Gentiles, when he says, you know, basically, we’ll find.
I’ll just go and preach to the Gentiles, then. Do you think any part of him is thinking about Jonah and thinking, I better not run from them, I better run toward them?
[00:58:07] Dr. Caughey: That’s a good question, because, I mean, it’s possible that those kinds of thoughts passed through his mind when he was rethinking the entire Old Testament.
Doesn’t he say that he spent a couple of years in isolation? Yeah, three years.
[00:58:26] Remy: Yeah.
[00:58:28] Dr. Caughey: So I want. I mean, it’s complete and total speculation, but I wonder if he said, do I really have to take this message to those dirty Gentiles?
[00:58:37] Remy: Right? And then thinks about Jonah and he’s.
[00:58:40] Dr. Caughey: Like.
[00:58:43] Remy: Might, should, might, should. It’s interesting about Jonah, too, that, like, not only is he mad that he has to bring the gospel to the Gentiles, but I think what. What really upsets Jonah is that he knows they’re going to repent. Right? And he doesn’t. It’s not just that he wants the. He wants the Gentiles to go to hell, the Ninevites to go to hell. It’s that he knows that if he goes and preaches to them, they won’t. Right. And, like, It’s. It’s a. He knows they’re gonna repent. And that also makes him so angry that, you know, we.
You’re right. We all have. We all have different groups of people that we just think, man, I hope I don’t see you there. You know?
And that’s. Boy, that’s. That’s wrong. That’s wrong thinking.
Because God’s hoping to see everyone there, right? Like God.
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, you know, not just for the sins of the people I like and think are cool.
[00:59:55] Dr. Caughey: And that’s. That’s why I’m a Lutheran, is because I realized that.
Yeah. That God does love everyone and sent his son to die for everyone.
[01:00:09] Remy: Yeah.
[01:00:11] Dr. Caughey: Yeah.
[01:00:12] Remy: Wow. And just like that, we brought it all the way back around. Full circle. That’s good.
[01:00:18] Dr. Caughey: That’s good.
[01:00:19] Remy: Dr. Caulhi, anything you want to plug?
[01:00:26] Dr. Caughey: Well, if you like what you heard Remy and I talking about tonight, I’d encourage you to audit a class from ALTS. It’s only $50, and as an auditor, you’re not obligated to do any of the work. Just come and listen and, you know, participate in the discussion. We’d love to have you.
[01:00:48] Remy: Excellent. Excellent. Have you ever written a book that people can buy?
[01:00:56] Dr. Caughey: I may have, yeah.
I have a book called the Tale of Two Adams, which does spend the bulk of its time in the Old Testament.
There is one chapter on the New Covenant, but, yeah, it talks about a lot of the things that we talked about tonight.
[01:01:13] Remy: Cool. Awesome. Dr. Cahi, thank you so much for coming on.
[01:01:18] Dr. Caughey: Hey, thanks for having me, Remy.
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